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Homegrown teams (II)

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From: Wagner

This Post:
00
324689.89 in reply to 324689.88
Date: 12/5/2024 10:20:20 AM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
207207
In addition:
- Holy City Hoopers (USA, IV)
- one other team (manager contacted me by BB mail instead of forum, so even though this wasn't mentioned/asked by this manager in question, I won't add the team name here before we'll really get things sorted out/confirm that the league will be started)

So, there are 8 of us currently. Still plenty of room my fellow managers, plenty of room for all interested. :)

From: Wagner

This Post:
00
324689.90 in reply to 324689.87
Date: 12/5/2024 11:51:50 AM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
207207

I think that it's more interesting playing 12 different teams, than playing twice 6 different teams.

In short, in general I'd agree with this. However, everything also depends on
-a league system used and
-number of teams participating
-how many divisions there are
-how many groups there are in the LEAGUE (there could be multiple groups within the same "league tier", like in Eurobasket/World Championships for instance)
-how many groups there are in the DIVISION (there could be even 2 groups in a division/league where as little as only 8 teams play)
-how teams play the league (there are so many potentially very good and interesting league systems out there, of which many are used in different sports, and of which many would be well suited to basketball too).
-etc.

Choosing a league system is always a some kind of compromise. In a way it'd be interesting to use more unorthodox systems, but on the other hand for the majority of managers it could also seem as off putting (as they might be only familiar with the most typical league systems), which I don't know/say as a fact but just speculate about it here.


[...]
*In case of a sum of MORE THAN 15 teams :
- the 1st season : we create 2 divisions based on salary mass (SM). Biggest SM goes to 1st division, 2nd SM goes to 2nd div, this up to the 16th team (or more). After playoffs, we create :
- a UPPER division with the 8 best from last season
- a LOWER division with the 8 worst


In this example of yours (based on salary - but I wonder what you mean by salary mass? Team total salary? I'd prefer other method of calculation, as suggested in earlier text), how did you think of deciding 2nd season team divisions, as 8 playing in UPPER league ARE ALREADY better than any of LOWER division teams after season 1 (as different level divisions aren't really comparable and therefore comparing different divisions playoffs results in order to determine which one is a better team couldn't be made; for example, you couldn't say that LOWER division playoff winner would be 2nd best of all teams, etc.). So it appears to me that the UPPER and LOWER division are initially based on SM, and as team comparison after season 1 playoffs can't be made objectively, then "normal 2 teams up 2 teams down" relegation schedule would take place starting from season 2 (and in that sense, no such "league creation" would take place after 1st season)?

Few thoughts:
- some league systems work better when there's more random number of teams playing (such as an odd number of teams, or in the case there would be hardly enough participants left for 2 divisions such as total of 13-16 teams), so keeping an open mind to a possibility to change the league system from season to season could be beneficial. I'm generally open to discussion on many kind of league structures, even though I do have (strong?) preferences too in some cases.

- if we want to play more games (including playoffs) than there are in the BB season, we could have 2-3 game days in the week. But it'll be necessary to evaluate if that'd cause too much organisational work

- it'll be necessary for every participating team to take care they'll have enough tokens left to organize matches for the whole season

- it would be possible to keep it as same division league with as big number as 16-18 teams if we want to (like in BB league there are 16 teams), even though then the relegation scenario wouldn't be used.

- relegation/promotion scenario, should there be multiple divisions, could be implemented in many ways. One of the interesting methods could be the one used in English football league system (amounts divided by two here): winner gets promoted, and 2nd and 3rd will play a promotion match (team with better regular season record maybe getting a home game?).

- I'm out of characters (4000 character limit) ;)

From: demars
This Post:
11
324689.91 in reply to 324689.90
Date: 12/13/2024 3:52:16 PM
Elan Demars
III.10
Overall Posts Rated:
196196
End of season with an unexpected record of 22-0, though I was thinking that it could be difficult to stay in the top 5 of my league !

I had some luck at the beginning of the season + 2-3 games "luckily" won + other teams not progressing as I expected. But, I will go to League 2 next season.
I'll be able to promote 2 of my younsters (21-22 yo, 1 HoF and 1 Legend). If I'm lucky (again), I'll be able to stay, but my veterans are going really old (41 - 39 - 38).

In 4 seasons, I'll have 4 young players (<26) + 2 very good SF of 35 y-o.
I must not forget to have some very good subs (around 10-15k/week).

From: Wagner

This Post:
00
324689.92 in reply to 324689.91
Date: 12/16/2024 4:14:54 AM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
207207
Congratulations - it's not always easy to estimate how strong your team is against the other teams in the league, but it's refreshing to get a positive surprise!
It seems you already checked out other French III-division level teams records and scoring differences for this regular season as you were able to determine whether or not you have positive enough scoring difference to be promoted to II-league anyway without being a league champion... Was it a close call, I mean were there lot of other teams with 22-0 record on division III? It's likely that many of those 22-0 teams will win their leagues, but if it'd be the case that some of them (who might have better scoring difference than your team, if any?) wouldn't, will you still be promoted in any case?

I know this has been discussed multiple times in some forum posts, but I just don't remember how many teams will be promoted in addition to league champions.. Official game manual only says that only 1 team "from the best of the rest" (non league champion) with best regular season record, and additionally some other teams (if there are bot teams on upper division - so I guess that is a factor here too?), can get promoted.

From: Azariah

This Post:
33
324689.93 in reply to 324689.92
Date: 12/16/2024 7:26:18 AM
Mos Eisley Imperials
NBBA
Overall Posts Rated:
217217
5 teams demote out of every league (6 in Utopia).

1 champion promotes out of every league, and there are 4 leagues in a lower division for every 1 league in the division above (except for Utopia div IV, which has 96 leagues compared to 16 leagues in Utopia div III).

So for every 1 league in the division above, there's 1 auto promotion spot available -- 1 auto promotion spot from II into I, 4 auto promotion spots from III into II, 16 auto promotion spots from IV into III. (except Utopia which gets weirder -- 2 auto promotion spots into div 1, 8 auto promotion spots into div II, and 0 auto promotion spots into div III).

Auto promotion rankings are determined by:
1. Regular season conference ranking (you MUST have won your conference in the regular season standings)
2. Total wins, descending
3. Point differential, descending

So Elan was one of 4 France d.III teams to go 22-0 in the regular season and has secured auto-promotion.

From: demars

This Post:
00
324689.94 in reply to 324689.93
Date: 12/16/2024 1:28:24 PM
Elan Demars
III.10
Overall Posts Rated:
196196
Thanks for the explanations ;)

(I checked before the PO, in case of...)

From: Fattuhi
This Post:
11
324689.95 in reply to 324689.94
Date: 12/16/2024 4:14:46 PM
S.F 29-team
III.2
Overall Posts Rated:
44
Hi, can add me to homegrown list

From: Wagner

This Post:
00
324689.96 in reply to 324689.93
Date: 12/18/2024 7:33:13 AM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
207207
5 teams demote out of every league (6 in Utopia).

1 champion promotes out of every league, and there are 4 leagues in a lower division for every 1 league in the division above (except for Utopia div IV, which has 96 leagues compared to 16 leagues in Utopia div III).

So for every 1 league in the division above, there's 1 auto promotion spot available -- 1 auto promotion spot from II into I, 4 auto promotion spots from III into II, 16 auto promotion spots from IV into III. (except Utopia which gets weirder -- 2 auto promotion spots into div 1, 8 auto promotion spots into div II, and 0 auto promotion spots into div III).

Auto promotion rankings are determined by:
1. Regular season conference ranking (you MUST have won your conference in the regular season standings)
2. Total wins, descending
3. Point differential, descending

So Elan was one of 4 France d.III teams to go 22-0 in the regular season and has secured auto-promotion.


Thank you for an explanation on my part as well! I think I may have seen this kind of discussion somewhere before, but as far as I can remember such a detailed explanation isn't a part of an official game manual, even though it should! Game manual only mentions about this (not official translation): "In addition, one extra promotion spot will be granted to a team that has a best regular season record (which is a team that hasn't already secured the promotion by other means).".

Speaking of different kind of league formats, that I was writing about in some previous posts when we were discussing in the possible establishing of BBHG (Buzzerbeater Homegrown) league, I did some initial "research" on different kind of league formats used in different sports leagues (mainly in Finnish top division sports, but some others as well).
I can share some of those in the near future if people are interested in hearing about them, when I'll have more time to write and when I have confirmed all of those leagues are actually played in the format it seems they are being played. Those comparisons could possibly work as an inspiration/as a starting point/even as a final solution to our challenge of finding "a perfect" league format for BBHG league.

But already now, for instance, if manager of S.F 29-team, Fattuhi, would be interested in joining the BBHG league, we would already have 9 participating teams. That would be exactly the same as in Finnish mens volleyball league, in which 8 will proceed to playoffs. And 9 would already be more than in Finnish bandy league (8 teams), rinkball (7 teams), and handball league (7 teams). If top leagues in a country can (and will) operate with such a low amount of teams and have meaningful league systems in function to determine a league winner, I don't see why BBHG would need to wait for, say 16 participants to announce their interest before we can start such league. I don't recall anyone saying that we should wait anyway, but I'm just saying. :)

This Post:
00
324689.97 in reply to 324689.96
Date: 12/18/2024 10:02:40 PM
QQguest
I.1
Overall Posts Rated:
335335
5 teams demote out of every league (6 in Utopia).

1 champion promotes out of every league, and there are 4 leagues in a lower division for every 1 league in the division above (except for Utopia div IV, which has 96 leagues compared to 16 leagues in Utopia div III).

So for every 1 league in the division above, there's 1 auto promotion spot available -- 1 auto promotion spot from II into I, 4 auto promotion spots from III into II, 16 auto promotion spots from IV into III. (except Utopia which gets weirder -- 2 auto promotion spots into div 1, 8 auto promotion spots into div II, and 0 auto promotion spots into div III).

Auto promotion rankings are determined by:
1. Regular season conference ranking (you MUST have won your conference in the regular season standings)
2. Total wins, descending
3. Point differential, descending

So Elan was one of 4 France d.III teams to go 22-0 in the regular season and has secured auto-promotion.


Thank you for an explanation on my part as well! I think I may have seen this kind of discussion somewhere before, but as far as I can remember such a detailed explanation isn't a part of an official game manual, even though it should! Game manual only mentions about this (not official translation): "In addition, one extra promotion spot will be granted to a team that has a best regular season record (which is a team that hasn't already secured the promotion by other means).".
Let me supplement the game manual part.
In Standings page, it says,
"One extra promotion spot will be awarded to the team with the best regular season record (conference ranking being the most important criteria)."
/community/rules.aspx?nav=Standings&official=1
And in Utopia League page, it says,
"Along with the conference champions, the rest of the promoting teams will be determined using the usual bot promotion ranking system (ordered by conference rank, wins, forfeits, point difference and finally points made)."
/community/rules.aspx?nav=Utopia&official=1

This Post:
11
324689.98 in reply to 324689.97
Date: 12/22/2024 9:02:30 AM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
207207
Thank you for your message. You are indeed correct, it does mention such things. I wasn't writing clearly enough. What I meant especially that clear information about league structures and such are missing. As manager Azariah wrote:


1 champion promotes out of every league, and there are 4 leagues in a lower division for every 1 league in the division above (except for Utopia div IV, which has 96 leagues compared to 16 leagues in Utopia div III).

So for every 1 league in the division above, there's 1 auto promotion spot available -- 1 auto promotion spot from II into I, 4 auto promotion spots from III into II, 16 auto promotion spots from IV into III. (except Utopia which gets weirder -- 2 auto promotion spots into div 1, 8 auto promotion spots into div II, and 0 auto promotion spots into div III).

Auto promotion rankings are determined by:
1. Regular season conference ranking (you MUST have won your conference in the regular season standings)
2. Total wins, descending
3. Point differential, descending


Also - while this is totally off-topic in terms of homegrown teams - I find that to not be the only part where the official game manual is lacking. Once again, as all important draft session is closing, there is no information available on official game manual for instance about what is going to be the potential range of player should he have 5, 4, 3, 2 or 1 ball potential (that's found on a draft page when you scout&interview them). I know this is kind of "basic knowledge" and it's kind of embarrassing as a long term homegrown manager to admit that I don't remember them automatically (but I don't).

I know it has been discussed on forums multiple times. But also, for non supporters forum search function is unavailable, which makes it unnecessarily difficult to find such basic information which should be part of game manual to begin with. (I can just imagine how new users would see this sort of things...). I just know I've been spending a lot of time searching for forums for many, many different kind of things without finding them, or if I have found them, in many instances that search project has been an unnecessarily long grind through tens/hundreds of forum posts.

End of a rant. ;)

From: rigno
This Post:
11
324689.99 in reply to 324689.1
Date: 12/25/2024 6:38:38 AM
Sea Urchins
Serie A
Overall Posts Rated:
6363
Promotion!

II for me in the same league and the same conference of Virtus Portici.


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