BuzzerBeater Forums

So...
about Sumo system © demars ( :D )
- For the very beginning, I think the salarial mass is the most objective way.
- Then, at the end of first season, we take the X best for next S2 League1, and the others for S2 League2

So in this example/model - which has already been copyright protected I noticed - I guess at least for the first season would play on the same level, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to determine that? :D One thing that I still don't necessarily understand well enough is how this so called sumo system would differ from a regular league system in terms of relegation, playoffs structure, etc.? So far it all seems to me as a regular, all play all schedule...

One thing that has been mentioned before (and which wouldn't be problem if salaries would be used as a ranking method) is that if and when new teams join the league, it'd need to be established how they would be "rated" - they do not have such "rating" based on last season success (unlike all other teams). One option could be to make everyone joining later to start at the lowest possible level (division 1 in this example, if there are league and division - I have never cared for BBs' way to have "Top League" and then II-division; where's the first division? So that's why I always refer second highest league tier division 1, like in real life). However, that could make very uneven series (if some team decides to join when they are more or less at their prime, while others at the imaginary first division are at the lower skill level), and would take away any chances of winning for the low skill level teams which might (or might not?) affect their motivation. But again, success is something you determine yourself, it's not something that needs to be strictly understood/determined "the traditional way", for instance that "only proper success is winning championships", etc.

- 2 divs, if there are too few teams is not a good thing because we'll have to play against the same teams twice or more, and because we won't play against all teams.

Yes, probably not a good thing. Just a wild thought though: in BB leagues we play once against other group and twice against our own group teams - perhaps it could create an interesting place for first division teams for huge upsets, if one match would be played against each top league team. That would create a chance for so called Kinboshi, a gold star victory (known from sumo wrestling) if we want to keep on the Sumo theme here in the reply - precious victories, of which we could keep a record. I'm not suggesting that we do this, but this was just an intuitive stream of thought that I seemed to want to write down... :P Maybe my writings would make someone willing to share their own ideas, so I see no harm in sharing them.

- there are 14 weeks. If we are 12, we can play against all teams (11 games) + semi-finals + finals -> 13 weeks (or keeping the 2-3 weeks for tie-breakers).

This is one way to do it, but few questions came into mind. That example seems to suggest that only 4 teams would advance to playoffs, or did you just forgot to mention the quarter final stage? And I suppose you mentioned tie-breakers, suggesting playoffs being played in best of 3 format? It's a matter of taste, but I personally love the NCAA way of doing things regarding playoffs - it makes so called Cinderella stories (huge underdog going all the way, or proceeding far longer in the playoff tournament than initially expected) more probable when every game can be your last - you lose, you're out.

- 1 div / 2 divs ?
It all depends of how many teams will play.
Personnaly, I think that we shoudn't put Utopia & Main teams in the same League. They should play apart.

I'm absolutely on the same page with you on this one. Utopian teams should play in their own Utopian Home Grown-league, if there are enough interested Utopian homegrown teams to get such league started.

You're right, this SUMO SYSTEM does not differ from a classical league system except that :
- there is no divisions in the league.

I think that all will depend on HOW MANY teams will join. If we are 12 to play, there is no need of 2 divisions. If we are 24, we can think about 1 league with 2 divisions OR 2 leagues (upper league & lower league)

- I was thinking that 1/2 semi finals woulf be sufficient, but that was because we are, now, only 8 teams. But, why not quarter finals !
- I didn't suggest 2/3 games for advancing in 1/2 or finals. I was only thinking of 1/4, 1/2 and finals in ONE game. But, why not...

You're right, this SUMO SYSTEM does not differ from a classical league system except that :
- there is no divisions in the league.

I think that all will depend on HOW MANY teams will join. If we are 12 to play, there is no need of 2 divisions. If we are 24, we can think about 1 league with 2 divisions OR 2 leagues (upper league & lower league)

So again couple of questions so that I can verify I understand what you exactly meant with your writings. :)
So as far as I understood, if in SUMO system there wouldn't be division, in your first example we wouldn't be using SUMO system (as here would be 1 league with 2 divisions) but "normal/typical league structure instead where all play all?

And in the case of that another example of yours, say, 24 teams with upper AND lower league, not everyone would play all, but "stronger" teams would face mainly stronger teams, and "weaker" teams mainly weaker teams, and team schedule would be determined by some certain factor(s) (which again would possibly be challenging task to do fairly and transparently - or maybe not?).
And in that case, would teams season win-loss records considered equal to each other comparing BOTH lower and upper level league with each other, OR would teams being compared only to each other on the SAME (lower or upper) level league (and would play against each opponent on that level, which to me, would again make that a "regular league/division system" which adds to my confusion).

I guess it mixes my thoughts about this too, as in Sumo wrestling there ARE divisions in Sumo "league", 7 of them if my memory serves me.
Personally I don't actually like how in sumo wrestling worse wrestlers face easier opposition and best ones tougher opposition, and still every ones record in the top division is compared directly to each other. I know it leads to a positive outcome in terms of getting good records for these wrestlers not having top ranks (and even possibly allowing them to fight for the championship), but in my opinion with a cost as I find it somewhat unfair way to balance the playing field as it favors underdogs too much (even to my taste).

- I was thinking that 1/2 semi finals woulf be sufficient, but that was because we are, now, only 8 teams. But, why not quarter finals !

I see your point. Maybe I was thinking of the scenario that we get at least 1-4 more teams that would be willing to join, as then there would be more point of having 8 teams playoffs. There are also many other kind of league systems in addition to typical one, that could be utilized if there would be 8 of us and we'd like to include more than 4 teams after the "preliminary round/first part of the regular season", however, using SOME OF such league systems would leave part of the teams out of the competition/action before the typical regular season would've ended so opinions should be gathered on how players would think of a given league structure.

- I didn't suggest 2/3 games for advancing in 1/2 or finals. I was only thinking of 1/4, 1/2 and finals in ONE game. But, why not...

Personally I'd like to see all playoffs be decided in ONE game. That adds the excitement and gives underdogs better chances to be successful. In many instances, team skill and wage levels in BB are huge, and practically only chance for a huge underdog to win would be in single elimination playoff system, as the more often you play David vs. Goliath type of matchup the statistical probability for the underdog to win a longer series diminishes rapidly.

I'd also like to add something:
I would suggest that also bronze medal winner would be decided with a single elimination format (in one match).

Also I suggest that the weekly playing day would be Friday, as that's one of the only BB days that aren't already full of action. And as I hate Mondays, and my 74 years old player Vesa Rimpiläinen refuses to play on Sundays, that's the only logical option left... ;)

I'm OK with all you said, but I try to be more clear ( I swear that I try ;) )

- When I talk about SUMO, it is their system where every players play every other players.
(yes I know that they only play 15 games (and they are 30 or more), but you understand the purpose).
I think that it's more interesting playing 12 different teams, than playing twice 6 different teams.

*In case of a sum of 12 teams at the beginning of the season :
- The first season, we take the 12 and everybody faces everybody then 1/4 finals, etc...

*In case of a sum of MORE THAN 15 teams :
- the 1st season : we create 2 divisions based on salary mass (SM). Biggest SM goes to 1st division, 2nd SM goes to 2nd div, this up to the 16th team (or more). After playoffs, we create :
- a UPPER division with the 8 best from last season
- a LOWER division with the 8 worst
Each new season, the 2 last (or more, it depends on haw many teams play the league) goes to lower in exchange of the 2 best from LOWER.

Well, I've read the last pages to sum all the possible teams.
Here is what I found. I must have forgotten some, but I wasn't sure for 2/3...

II Les Gueux du Marais
II Wagner College
III Elan Demars
III WiMaOlCa
IV Madrid Chotis
IV Buckner Bandits
IV Holy City Hoopers

For the forgotten ones, just tell me !

edited !

Last edited by demars at 12/5/2024 11:10:33 AM

In addition:
- Holy City Hoopers (USA, IV)
- one other team (manager contacted me by BB mail instead of forum, so even though this wasn't mentioned/asked by this manager in question, I won't add the team name here before we'll really get things sorted out/confirm that the league will be started)

So, there are 8 of us currently. Still plenty of room my fellow managers, plenty of room for all interested. :)

I think that it's more interesting playing 12 different teams, than playing twice 6 different teams.

In short, in general I'd agree with this. However, everything also depends on
-a league system used and
-number of teams participating
-how many divisions there are
-how many groups there are in the LEAGUE (there could be multiple groups within the same "league tier", like in Eurobasket/World Championships for instance)
-how many groups there are in the DIVISION (there could be even 2 groups in a division/league where as little as only 8 teams play)
-how teams play the league (there are so many potentially very good and interesting league systems out there, of which many are used in different sports, and of which many would be well suited to basketball too).
-etc.

Choosing a league system is always a some kind of compromise. In a way it'd be interesting to use more unorthodox systems, but on the other hand for the majority of managers it could also seem as off putting (as they might be only familiar with the most typical league systems), which I don't know/say as a fact but just speculate about it here.

[...]
*In case of a sum of MORE THAN 15 teams :
- the 1st season : we create 2 divisions based on salary mass (SM). Biggest SM goes to 1st division, 2nd SM goes to 2nd div, this up to the 16th team (or more). After playoffs, we create :
- a UPPER division with the 8 best from last season
- a LOWER division with the 8 worst

In this example of yours (based on salary - but I wonder what you mean by salary mass? Team total salary? I'd prefer other method of calculation, as suggested in earlier text), how did you think of deciding 2nd season team divisions, as 8 playing in UPPER league ARE ALREADY better than any of LOWER division teams after season 1 (as different level divisions aren't really comparable and therefore comparing different divisions playoffs results in order to determine which one is a better team couldn't be made; for example, you couldn't say that LOWER division playoff winner would be 2nd best of all teams, etc.). So it appears to me that the UPPER and LOWER division are initially based on SM, and as team comparison after season 1 playoffs can't be made objectively, then "normal 2 teams up 2 teams down" relegation schedule would take place starting from season 2 (and in that sense, no such "league creation" would take place after 1st season)?

Few thoughts:
- some league systems work better when there's more random number of teams playing (such as an odd number of teams, or in the case there would be hardly enough participants left for 2 divisions such as total of 13-16 teams), so keeping an open mind to a possibility to change the league system from season to season could be beneficial. I'm generally open to discussion on many kind of league structures, even though I do have (strong?) preferences too in some cases.

- if we want to play more games (including playoffs) than there are in the BB season, we could have 2-3 game days in the week. But it'll be necessary to evaluate if that'd cause too much organisational work

- it'll be necessary for every participating team to take care they'll have enough tokens left to organize matches for the whole season

- it would be possible to keep it as same division league with as big number as 16-18 teams if we want to (like in BB league there are 16 teams), even though then the relegation scenario wouldn't be used.

- relegation/promotion scenario, should there be multiple divisions, could be implemented in many ways. One of the interesting methods could be the one used in English football league system (amounts divided by two here): winner gets promoted, and 2nd and 3rd will play a promotion match (team with better regular season record maybe getting a home game?).

- I'm out of characters (4000 character limit) ;)

End of season with an unexpected record of 22-0, though I was thinking that it could be difficult to stay in the top 5 of my league !

I had some luck at the beginning of the season + 2-3 games "luckily" won + other teams not progressing as I expected. But, I will go to League 2 next season.
I'll be able to promote 2 of my younsters (21-22 yo, 1 HoF and 1 Legend). If I'm lucky (again), I'll be able to stay, but my veterans are going really old (41 - 39 - 38).

In 4 seasons, I'll have 4 young players (<26) + 2 very good SF of 35 y-o.
I must not forget to have some very good subs (around 10-15k/week).

Congratulations - it's not always easy to estimate how strong your team is against the other teams in the league, but it's refreshing to get a positive surprise!
It seems you already checked out other French III-division level teams records and scoring differences for this regular season as you were able to determine whether or not you have positive enough scoring difference to be promoted to II-league anyway without being a league champion... Was it a close call, I mean were there lot of other teams with 22-0 record on division III? It's likely that many of those 22-0 teams will win their leagues, but if it'd be the case that some of them (who might have better scoring difference than your team, if any?) wouldn't, will you still be promoted in any case?

I know this has been discussed multiple times in some forum posts, but I just don't remember how many teams will be promoted in addition to league champions.. Official game manual only says that only 1 team "from the best of the rest" (non league champion) with best regular season record, and additionally some other teams (if there are bot teams on upper division - so I guess that is a factor here too?), can get promoted.

5 teams demote out of every league (6 in Utopia).

1 champion promotes out of every league, and there are 4 leagues in a lower division for every 1 league in the division above (except for Utopia div IV, which has 96 leagues compared to 16 leagues in Utopia div III).

So for every 1 league in the division above, there's 1 auto promotion spot available -- 1 auto promotion spot from II into I, 4 auto promotion spots from III into II, 16 auto promotion spots from IV into III. (except Utopia which gets weirder -- 2 auto promotion spots into div 1, 8 auto promotion spots into div II, and 0 auto promotion spots into div III).

Auto promotion rankings are determined by:
1. Regular season conference ranking (you MUST have won your conference in the regular season standings)
2. Total wins, descending
3. Point differential, descending

So Elan was one of 4 France d.III teams to go 22-0 in the regular season and has secured auto-promotion.

Thanks for the explanations ;)

(I checked before the PO, in case of...)