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Thank you for those 3 people who have commented here so far about which they prefer...a PickUp system or a Private League version of the HG League.

@ demars and Hadar. Thanks for your responses. I respect your reasons.

We still have more than 10 people who are yet to voice their opinion.

@ Wagner. Regarding the simple rules and regulations:

I believ that while we can spend the remainder of the weeks fine-tuning all the little consequences for those managers who do not uphold the expectations of participating in the HG league, I propose we begin with trust and simplicity:

As I noted in a previous post, I have been preparing a PL, too, just in case people are wanting this to go ahead. However, PL rules would differ to PU rules (see below). For a PU system, regarding rules and consequences, I would suggest a simple way to deal with any managers not playing by the rules in terms of fielding HG players. This is the most likely problem we will face other than managers not setting PickUp games in time. That, I believe, can be solved with the Commissioner sending reminder bbmails weeks prior to them being needed to be set. If these reminders are done, I doubt we will have any managers not getting it done.

So, to the consequences I mentioned:

(i) Any team which plays non-HG player(s) in any game during the HG League will receive a bbmail (from the Commissioner) reminding them about the HG rules we run this league under. They have time to fix this by either selling or firing any player(s) which is not HG and should not be on their team. Any players who are not HG need to be fired or sold before the next PU game. If the player is for sale, and the sale date is after the start of the next PU game, the player is not allowed to play in that game or any others until they are fired or sold.

(ii) Any team that plays a non-HG player(s) in more than 1 game, despite being reminded through a bbmail by the commissioner, will not be invited to play in the following season.




Last edited by MrJ at 2/23/2025 2:04:41 AM

So, these are simple and, in my opinion, fair. Yes, they could be far more complex. And we could certainly list countless other consequences for a range of varying indiscretions. However, I think we should approach this HG League with the following in mind:

1. Managers are HG-minded and here to compete against other HG teams.
2. Trust is given, not earned. That is, we begin the league by assuming they will do the right thing.
3. We are all human, make mistakes, and will respond well if respected.


So, keep it simple!

I have also come to appreciate a great advantage the PU system has over the PL version, and this dovetails neatly to what I have just said about the positive attitude we should have for this league regarding rules.

In a PL, everything is done for you. That is, once the schedule (away/home) and number of games has been decided, then the teams invited and accepted, everything else become automated. This can be a positive, but there is one great negative to this:

If a team, or teams, break the HG rules(s) and we wish for those game results to not be counted, we can simply ignore those game results in a PU league. We cannot do that in a PL league as it will run until it is finished even if teams deliberately break the rules in some or every game!

Therefore, a PU system will allow us to count or disregard weekly games where the rules were broken if we deem this part of the consequences. That is, we could amend the 2 simple consequences I listed above to state the following:


Rule Breaks and Their Consequences:

(i) Any team which plays non-HG player(s) in any game during the HG League will receive a bbmail (from the Commissioner) reminding them about the HG rules we run this league under (Warning) AND have their result for that game recorded as a 0-50 LOSS. They have time to fix this by either selling or firing any player(s) which is not HG and should not be on their team. Any players who are not HG need to be fired or sold before the next PU game. If the player is for sale, and the sale date is after the start of the next PU game, the player is not allowed to play in that game or any other game.

(ii) Any team that plays a non-HG player(s) in more than 1 game, despite being reminded through a bbmail by the commissioner (warning), will receive a 0-50 LOSS for that game and be immediately disqualified* from playing in the competition.

*DISQUALIFIED TEAMS:

A) When a team is disqualified, ALL games they have competed in up until and including the game that disqualified them...will be altered to a 0-50 loss.
B) If PU games have already been scheduled with a disqualified team, those games, regardless of their actual results, will also be altered to reflect 0-50 losses.
C) All future scheduled games with a disqualified team that are yet to be set, will become 50-0 wins for that team.


This was my idea for the PU system. It would be much different in a PL league, where this amount of control does not exist until the season is finished.

Last edited by MrJ at 2/23/2025 2:12:24 AM

I can make a pick up or a private league work for me, but a private league is definitely easier as there's less admin once up and running, right? And let's be honest, we all have other things that will pop up and I'm sure someone will miss a game one week if having to organise games each week.

Sorry for being less active in the forum, I try to check in on it each week, but I also have a lot of other places to be across so miss sometimes.

I can make a pick up or a private league work for me, but a private league is definitely easier as there's less admin once up and running, right? And let's be honest, we all have other things that will pop up and I'm sure someone will miss a game one week if having to organise games each week.

Sorry for being less active in the forum, I try to check in on it each week, but I also have a lot of other places to be across so miss sometimes.

Yes, we all have different things going on as well, and therein lies the challenge. But to counteract this we have already suggested that regular season games will be organized in 2 different time windows (as Pickup games are possible to organize no more than 2 months away from the current day), not every week. There still remains a problem with managers not following the rule, which would effectively harm the league.

And in my eyes, it's better to prepare well and think of possible problematic scenarios before the season, rather than deal with it in the midst of the season on case by case basis, when (if not) some problems will arise (not necessarily during the 1st season, but even that doesn't mean this everlasting challenge wouldn't exist). So while it's a nice and good approach to trust, and while we expect managers that join to have respect towards each other and the league, I also want to place some safeguards so that it doesn't become wrong kind of play field for some managers that wouldn't be up for committing for at least duration of one season (buying restricted players, organizing their own matches).

Also, while I was thinking of bringing it up later on, I think organizing Pickup games is the most critical part, so therefore while problems are most likely avoided (mostly at least) by organizing regular season matches in two time windows instead of one, I think we do need to do the following: play 2 matches per week in the beginning of the season, for as many weeks as it's necessary to be able to play only 1 regular season match for the rest of the season, and only 1 playoff round per week. See, these playoff matches are going be have to be organized separately for each and every match. And if we'd play 2 playoff matches per week, we'd run the serious risk of matches not being played in time or at all (and again, if not played in a given time frame, that should probably also cause sanctions).
And I'd hate to see these "walk-ons"/forfeits due to people not organizing matches, that ruins the fun for all. And in some worst cases, unless some other systems/rules are being created (or if we use 0-50 or other forfeit rule), we'd have to change into a winning percentage based league table in a midst of a season if teams wouldn't have the same amount of regular season games.

Also, as "a regular manager" of the BBHG league wouldn't have other responsibilities than organizing Pickup matches (and sticking with the other rules!), it shouldn't be too much to ask - which should be reflected in strictness of penalties when failing to do so.

I will open up my suggestions and reasoning behind more complicated set of rules/penalties for violations a bit later on, but as a tasting, like MrJ noted, BBHG will be league for homegrown managers, who will commit for the league at least for one season in one go. That is like 3 real life months. This is not too much to ask. (If it is too much, then it's probably not a right league for such managers anyway).

So keeping this in mind, how would anyone playing in the league just start buying players while knowing the league rules? They shouldn't, but they could (at some point in the long run). However, if you'd buy "restricted" players, that should immediately trigger that "second level" penalty (out for this and for the next season). But if you'd even play those "restricted" players in BBHG league match, you couldn't give a bigger middle finger to the league if you tried, so it should be current+2 seasons penalty.

*DISQUALIFIED TEAMS:

A) When a team is disqualified, ALL games they have competed in up until and including the game that disqualified them...will be altered to a 0-50 loss.
B) If PU games have already been scheduled with a disqualified team, those games, regardless of their actual results, will also be altered to reflect 0-50 losses.
C) All future scheduled games with a disqualified team that are yet to be set, will become 50-0 wins for that team.


This was my idea for the PU system. It would be much different in a PL league, where this amount of control does not exist until the season is finished.

Thank you for your propositions. I will send a thorough reply a bit later, as I have somewhat differing (stricter) views about the penalty and rules structure (which you could probably guess from my previous messages).

But for now I'll just quickly reply to one of the aspects of your message, or rather part of it (as this 0-50 "forfeit rule", should we apply it to the league, is best further discussed) concerning your part A).

While I don't deny there's some logic to it, I think it's still a clear fact that team that is being disqualified has been played all their matches fairly until that point, and I see less good than bad in wiping those previous match results, so I think those results should remain valid.

But maybe even more importantly, from the practical (commissioner) standpoint, I see it as an only realistic option to keep and update league table and results manually, and I'm not crazy about starting to count everything again from the scratch (wins, point differentials, etc.) if some team fails to follow the rules and decides to become ineligible, in other words disqualified from the league. Your read correct - it is a decision, which is intentionally/deliberately made (if it is made) and there is no excuse for it.

One could do it if they so wish, but we do not want to encourage that. And, as once again mentioned, one is joining the league knowing (at least most of these) penalties, so it's a deliberate middle finger to the league if you decide not to remain homegrown. And it's not like penalties from violations would even affect any other part of your Buzzerbeater, only BBHG league, so if you absolutely need to buy that player to avoid relegation, you are free to do so - just be aware that it does have consequences in terms of participating to remainder and following season of the BBHG league (and the season after that too, if you ask me, if you have had nerves to even dress/play those "illegal" players in BBHG league matches).

So for instance for these reasons (among others, don't get me started;), in addition to trust, strict approach to certain aspects of rules and penalties is necessary in my opinion. This doesn't mean that I wouldn't trust managers joining the league. However, there's a funny thing with consequences - it often times makes you do things you otherwise maybe wouldn't do, and I think we want to encourage commitment to the league as much as possible and do everything possible to attract committed enough managers. And one way to keep it functioning as much itself as possible is to make sure everyone is sticking with the rules/protocol.

And impact of such neglectful behavior towards the league and other teams/managers should be minimized to begin with, and the amount of additional work that that kind of undesirable behavior causes to a commissioner should also be minimized, which could be ensured (at least to some extent) by having clear set of rules, penalties and expectations for the managers.

Set of rules and penalties doesn't need to be the most complicated system in the world, but I don't think we should oversimplify this either (your example system wasn't total oversimplification, I don't mean that), but I do have some additions in mind which I will share in some of the forthcoming messages.

@ Deano25. Good to hear from you, mate. I am also leaning more towards the PL than the PU version, although both have strengths and weaknesses. I would still like to hear from more managers about which they prefer.

@Wagner. While I do not agree with too many rules and regulations for managers, as I believe this might cause managers to be unwilling to compete in the first place, I do acknowledge your commitment to this HG League and setting up in a manner you believe correct.

On that note...

...I would like to nominate you formerly as the first 'Commissioner' of the HG League. You have a very clear idea of what this league should look like and have obviously thought about it in detail. As the Commissioner, you can guide all of us in the direction you believe will benefit the creation and maintenance of the HG League.

Can I get some support from other managers to make Wagner the Commissioner?

Hey All,

Sorry it has been a hot minute, The Buckner Bandits are still 100% homegrown and good for any league yall decide!! :-) Thank you all for setting this up! Gonna be fun!!

Hello Gccsteel!
I didn't remember participation to private leagues is restricted to 1 league at a time. In that sense, playing homegrown league as PU league actually appears to be less restricting, and allowing Supporter package owners to compete in both simultaneously: homegrown league and then on some other private league. Playing homegrown league as a private league (of which idea I'm totally not a fan of) would then restrict Supporters to play only that league.

Anyway, as far as ladder rankings go, you were supposedly discussing about the league system (regular season and playoffs) in your message, unless I understood it all wrong? I have actually already given a proposition for a league system, that MrJ very well condensed on 14th of January: https://www.buzzerbeater.com/community/forum/read.aspx?thread=324689&m=248

So if this aforementioned league system is fine for all, we could use that, with possibly some fine tuning, such as making sure we get these 2 games/week weeks out of the way as soon as possible and most importantly play only 1 playoff match per week (in order to minimize managers not organizing/playing PU matches in time.

We do have to decide some aspects though, and I'm working on my propositions currently.
Especially MrJ's contribution helps me a lot in it, and I will keep his favoring of simplicity and less punitive preferences in mind when planning a structure in terms of rules and penalties (that I'd suggest). However, like I said, thank you MrJ and please send message here in forum or BB mail if you have any propositions to "basic BB rules" in mind that you'd prefer to see implemented. (For instance, you mentioned that if a team gets disqualified, all the results would be changed to 0-50 loss, into which I presented another view for certain reasons; now that I think of your proposition, there are also many strong points in it that proposition and I really like the idea of not getting any wins to the all time stats from such season etc., yet at the same time if I have to be the one that changes/corrects everything manually, I'm not sure how much additional work it would create - handling everything manually doesn't sound very tempting task in the first place, but I get that someone needs to do it in order for this to work).

Same goes for other managers too, you may send me BB mail and we can discuss about pros and cons of certain aspects without overcrowding this forum thread (which I seem to be pretty good at sometimes;).

One of the questions would be though, that as for the first season of BBHG should we stick with 14 teams or also add 1-2 teams in addition that I think already have announced their interest (unless I'm mistaken here?) in addition to 14 team roster that we already have, what do you guys think?

Given that we choose this "one league, 12 playoff spots available" league system that I mentioned before (link added to this post), I suppose it would at least still keep things interesting (in terms of at least theoretically being able to clinch a playoff spot) for the most teams at least almost until the end of the regular season.

In the case there would be for instance 16 of us, we would have to have more of those 2 games/week weeks though, and it would be slightly more work for regular manager (and a bit more for the commissioner) and make significance of 1 league game slightly less important (13 vs. 15 regular season matches), but as long as someone else would take care of creating a random schedule for the regular season, I guess I'd be open for both options. (MrJ, and if needed demars, already has got us covered here if they are willing to offer their help on this one at least).
The more the merrier, some say, but I guess about 16 teams or so might be the maximum for 1 level league for certain reasons.

I see, thank you for clearing up what you meant, it's easy to not get the whole picture of what one meant, but now I think I got your point.

I have actually debated this league format question quite a lot, as it's totally essential part of the whole league.
While I totally agree with league causing a lot of work, I really also hope there is more than a little payout for most managers.

Personally I'm really not a fan of these kind of league systems (Swiss system etc.) where you don't face all teams, as it's never completely fair and equal to all teams. For instance in a typical regular season when you face each and every team once, then if you can get 7 wins and another team gets 6 wins, you've clearly had more successful season, while in many of these more special systems you only face restricted number of teams, and therefore strength of your schedule (SOS) is less likely equal to other teams SOS.

This kind of league system on my opinion creates multiple problems in terms of equality; by which basis which team faces which (and also importantly, which it doesn't face) which are closely also linked to strength of schedule, SOS (term is being used in NCAA for instance) of each team, in which order should teams face each other and how much would that game result affect to the rankings of the teams, how many teams are included in the postseason play, etc. etc..

In an extreme example of such league, if only 2 teams would get a chance to play in playoff (only final match, like for instance in NHLs' 4 nations face-off tournament), then if lowest ranked team would face best ranked team in their last regular season match then if lower ranked team would win that match, they'd be awarded a place in the final (instead of the number 1 ranked team), which would effectively render all the wins of previously #1 ranked team meaningless due to a loss in one regular season match. This is not to say it couldn't work for some leagues, but I really wouldn't want to have such league system being part of a home grown league.

As for having another website for that, in ideal world I'd root for that idea too. Earlier I mentioned that it would be great to have an own website for the league. But as I'm not an expert on that, I'll leave it for others to comment (how realistic would it be without having experience of website creation, and more importantly, what would be the total cost per year at the very least).

As for now though, we have planned to start a new forum thread for the BBHG league (or whatever it's name will become). However, I think game results (links to game box scores) should be sent to forums instead of BB mail of a Commissioner, as the functionality of BB mail, especially in terms of getting access to old messages, is nothing short of horrendously lousy. But I think we will need yet another forum thread for that, as otherwise these links to box scores will effectively cause too much unwanted traffic on the dedicated BBHG league page (in where we would have most conversation about the league instead of this forum thread, after we've established it that is).