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If you would lose on a TiE vs. TiE, you would almost certainly rather lose on a TiE vs. a normal by a few more points.

Not really, because in absence of an agreement the "better" team would just also Normal. And then neither team gets any enthusiasm boost for the next game.

I guess I agree that there are a few, rare chances that a mutual TIE doesn't make sense....but they are few and far between.

Last edited by stogey23 at 2/18/2010 3:05:33 AM

If your theory is correct then why don't past results support a more variable mix of success? In almost 11 seasons the best team usually wins. Since season 3 there's been 14 cup and league trophies split amongst 3 teams. The balance of power from top to bottom has been extremely static.

I think your analysis is ignoring the huge effect of HCA too. Barring a CT vs a TIE a weaker team has little chance on the road to a stronger team, even with a normal vs a tie. Therefore the stronger team can comfortably tie almost all their home games. Since using a CT in the regular season is terrible waste of resources considering the small effect of one league win and future potential losses it causes, including shortening a cup run, it almost never happens.

So all the posturing you laid out above really only comes into effect when a stronger team plays on the road to a weaker team, a situation where the result could go either way. To survive weak teams really need to ensure they win home games since road wins are tough for any team. What benefit is it to the weaker team not to mtie in these games? If they don't mtie the stronger team isnt going to lay down a throw a winnable road game because they couldn't secure or offer/accept a mtie. The weaker team would likely not want to tie and throw a winnable home game.

Enthusiasm is important but it's not more important than wins and losses. Not even considering the reality of MTIE, in both cases above the weaker team is at the same, if not greater, disadvantage based on the ability of stronger teams have higher enthusiasm from being able to tie more games with less risk.

Now, keep in mind the teams that have been around and played each other for 5+ seasons are likely MTIE their games, so newer teams that come in with less resources decide not to accept MTIE for tactical/moral reasons are at even more a disadvantage.

Try to look past how you've rationalized this system to yourself since that's not how it's playing out in reality. This system is hurting weaker teams.

Last edited by brian at 2/18/2010 5:35:21 AM

Brian nails it on the head.

I will say that having CT'd a cup game there has been no need to offer mutual TIE's to my league opponents :-)

In other news, yay for playoff enthusiasm options in the cup quarterfinals.

My personal feeling is that the worst thing I can do for team's chance of league success is to lose a game in which both teams played normal.

In other news, yay for playoff enthusiasm options in the cup quarterfinals.

Upon further reflection, yay for playoff enthusiasm options when I've got the stronger team and boo when I need to make a gap in talent.

Enthusiasm is a mechanism by which weaker teams can compete with stronger teams.

Then why only two options in the playoffs? Does that not favor the stronger team?

If I've had a MTie this season, it was early on.

If your theory is correct then why don't past results support a more variable mix of success? In almost 11 seasons the best team usually wins. Since season 3 there's been 14 cup and league trophies split amongst 3 teams. The balance of power from top to bottom has been extremely static.

Just because the top teams continue to have an entrenched advantage, doesn't mean his theory is incorrect; if you removed enthusiasm you might well have more than 14 cup/league trophies split between 3 teams. I think there are a couple reasons why the balance of power has remained relatively static:

1) At the top divisions, everybody is a pretty good manager, so you're not going to rise through the ranks very quickly on human skill alone. Even if you are the very best manager, you are still only marginally better than the other very good managers around you, and it is easy to imagine it taking seasons of being a marginally better manager before your team can catch and then surpass the old guard.

2) As you said towards the end of your post, the friendships that develop between managers who've been at the top level together for 5+ seasons tends to lead to an unofficial league-wide mTIE anyway. If you believe mTIE is an advantage to the top teams (and having followed this thread, I do), having these understandings between friends (who are probably coincidently also the top teams, or they would not be staying in the top division for 5+ seasons straight) only adds to the pile of advantages entrenched teams already enjoy.

The way I see the issue is that asking whether mTIE is an advantage/disadvantage for weak teams misses the point; weak teams are not really competing with the top teams, they are competing with each other to avoid relegation. The teams a league-wide mTIE really hurts are the decent teams who have moved beyond fear of relegation and are now trying to challenge the top teams. These are the teams just below the top, who are trying to dethrone you, the ones who DO have a legitimate shot at stealing a game by going normal on the road, or being able to protect home court even with a TIE. Taking enthusiasm decisions away from these teams means giving them one less weapon to try to use against the older, stronger teams, and it extends the number of seasons a decent team needs to grind out marginally better improvements before he can compete with the big boys.

mTIE is sort of like a ceiling that says, 'We'll make it easier/simpler for you new teams to go from bad --> good, but we're going to make it really, really hard for you to go from good--> title contender." That is an outcome that is ultimately in favor of the already top teams, any way you slice it.

I personally believe a league-wide mTIE rule would make things more boring and hurt more teams in this league than it would help in the long run, but you guys earned your way here so you have the right to play however you choose. What concerns me more is the idea of using a league-wide mTIE as some sort of statement/boycott to pressure the BBs to change the whole enthusiasm system.

As everybody probably remembers from their younger days, enthusiasm offers a ton of options for teams in lower divisions looking to make a playoff run and steal promotion, continue a cup run by surprising a stronger opponent, etc that aren't as applicable to teams entrenched in division one. I worry about seeing the system scrapped just because it's positive aspects are less obvious this high up the food chain.