BuzzerBeater Forums

Fixed time is okay with me.

Thanks for confirming that.

But I think I'm done reading this thread. Too many posts and discussion about non-essential things. I'll check the main thread going forward so long as final updates are made there. Count my vote as in line with commissioner if necessary to proceed.

Right... Well, you are free to read or not to read this thread of course. I suppose it's a matter of taste what is essential and what's non-essential, so it's more or less fruitless to start debate about it now. But nevertheless it was a very good idea of you to mention what you said in your last sentence, so I'll count your vote being in line with Commissioners vote for now (let's say until HGL season actually starts or unless I hear from you again before that) if needed for proceeding.

As far as essential content regarding HGL, such as rules and penalties and all other essential information will be eventually added to both Official Threads. Not all content on both threads of course, but some content will be added to both Official Threads before the first regular season match. The idea/goal is that as manager reads both threads (as far as about 10 official posts of both threads are concerned) they will have enough information to be able to start playing in HGL, and will be able to follow the guidelines/rules set by HGL.

Fixed time is okay with me.

Thanks for confirming that.

But I think I'm done reading this thread. Too many posts and discussion about non-essential things. I'll check the main thread going forward so long as final updates are made there. Count my vote as in line with commissioner if necessary to proceed.

Right... Well, you are free to read or not to read this thread of course. I suppose it's a matter of taste what is essential and what's non-essential, so it's more or less fruitless to start debate about it now. But nevertheless it was a very good idea of you to mention what you said in your last sentence, so I'll count your vote being in line with Commissioners vote for now (let's say until HGL season actually starts or unless I hear from you again before that) if needed for proceeding.

As far as essential content regarding HGL, such as rules and penalties and all other essential information will be eventually added to both Official Threads. Not all content on both threads of course, but some content will be added to both Official Threads before the first regular season match. The idea/goal is that as manager reads both threads (as far as about 10 official posts of both threads are concerned) they will have enough information to be able to start playing in HGL, and will be able to follow the guidelines/rules set by HGL.

Keep up the great work, Wagner.

Im going into the first HGL with the attitude of, "Hey, I will likely lose every game; but, maybe I will sneak a suprpise win through tactics somewhere. If not, look out in Season 2, 3, 4..." :D

Exactly - you are such an experienced manager, that it can often give you some tactical edge over less experienced ones... And, like mentioned, even though you wouldn't reach playoffs for the first season, every win counts towards your all time winning records. :)
Speaking of playoff and the format in question. Still under consideration, but I'd quickly say that the probabilities of implementing the exact previously planned league and playoff system for HGL that I was mentioning yesterday (?) haven't really changed, so most likely we'll stick with the original plan as far as the amount of teams included to post season play is concerned.
Like I mentioned, in Finnish ice hockey league they have exactly 16 teams playing in a league, of which 12 proceeds to postseason play, just like in HGL.
In Swedish 'premier' hockey league, SHL, it's a bit different story with 6 best teams receiving an automatic place to second round of playoff, and only 4 teams (placed 7th-10th) are going through the first round of playoff, of which 2 will accompany those 6 teams in the second round of playoffs.
Again, with 16 teams in HGL this wouldn't work (better than the current system) as we would then have to include less teams (which is somewhat questionable).

Only workaround that I could come up with by quickly thinking it over, should it be necessary to include two more teams to postseason play (from 12 to 14, which I'm not sure at all if it's necessary, as 75% is quite a nice amount already), is that if we would give a bye for two best teams of regular season only to second round of playoffs, and then the rest 12 teams would play for 6 remaining spots on the second round of playoffs. Unless I have an error in my thinking, that would reduce the number correctly till the end, and include 14 teams to postseason play. However, with this system there would be couple of more likely very clear results/massive wins in the first round of playoffs, compared to system used now, so that's definitely a big downside of it (while, having said that, I love these surprise results in sports, but with current system they are a bit more probable to actually happen!).
For instance, the extremities in current HGL league system in 1st round of PO: #5vs12, and 6vs12.
In new system (including 14 teams) would be: #3vs14, and 4vs13.

I have a question, maybe stupid, but...

I don't understand the "problem" while the time of the games.

Imagine...

i want to create a game against ANY team, from ANYwhere.
I can create it today for April the 5th at 21h00 MYTIME

Since my opponent has one month to put his lineup, where is the problem ?
With the exception of somebody wanting to watch it live, I don't see other problem.

Please answer for what I don't understand.

I'm not sure I understood all your points totally 100%, but I've tried to give my points in those two aforementioned messages. Having a month time to set up a lineup is not the problem (with this fixed match time issue). Speaking of which, has anyone have knowledge about what T-Lit brought into light yesterday(?), that can we arrange all PU matches at once or is there some limit on how many can be arranged at once?

My main point was this:

Also, having a fixed time for match would also create a routine/standard for the league, and very/most importantly, would make it impossible to make a rematch if some managers would be into it, for, let me just say, for "various reasons"

I think both aforementioned benefits are positive, and watching game "live" isn't necessarily something that couldn't be sacrificed here, because as MrJ mentioned as it can be watched as a reply without spoiling the result (unless of course you read Official Threads before you watch your match, but that's the same with any sports and exposure to HGL results are much easier to avoid than any major sports in "real life").

But if "various reasons" in my previous message needs to be opened further, it also means that it completely removes/eliminates the possibility/temptation from managers to arrange a re-match should they be "unhappy" with the match result. (If you want me to open up what I mean by 'unhappy', let me know). Therefore, it ensures the fairness for all. There is only something to win here when we ensure this by certain practices (such as a fixed time for matches), and I think ensuring such things should be in core of practically almost all essential decisions on league rules/structure.

We are arranging (if possible?) all regular season matches in one time window, but as you can remember, there is no way for me to verify they are actually organized. (And no, as for now I don't want this to go into direction of sending screenshots to prove things). Theoretically two managers could play match, say 2, or why not 10+ times within one day if they have enough tokens and they'd agree to do so, and post a result they wish to post. With a clearly set/fixed time this would not be possible, so this should be good enough reason in itself.

We can always say that 'oh, we just need to trust', but I think it's also very beneficial and sensible to create a clear system which we'll follow, and fixed time for match would be just that. And in a fixed time for matches-system we'd then likely use the standard times year around (as applying Daylight Savings Times vary from country to country, and HGL match organizing window could overlap the change to DST - for example in Finland now matches start at 3.30PM due to daylight savings time differences to US if I remember it correctly, while they normally always start at 4.30PM).

I agree, demars.

I don't think a set time is necessary for two reasons:

1. As demars just noted, we are setting the matches so far ahead that the start time is irrelevant.
2. (also addresses demars's comment re watching it live) Even if a team wants to watch their game live, and can't because the time isn't helpful, they can always watch the replay.

So, while I will agree to a set time if that is what everyone wants, I actually think it doesn't matter.

As far as I see it now, I think it does matter/have a meaning to have a set/defined time for matches. I actually addressed these same things in my post to demars, here: (324689.504). Also mentioning it in my HGL Scores thread post shortly (but in more thorough manner in discussions of this thread).

Keep up the great work, Wagner.

Thanks MrJ! :)

Thanks for volunteering! Wow, if my memory serves me that's the largest amount of tokens I've heard of!

We needed 8 managers to do this for this method to be viable.

Already Volunteered:
1. Wagner
2. MrJ
3. Gccsteel
4.T-Lit
5. Moneta
6. Deano25
7. Paul George
8. Chucarro

We have 8!

Thank you everyone for responding so quickly.

Wagner, this method could work now. My suggestion: We would need...

1. The above 8 managers to organise every one of their PU games against teams not listed above; and
2. Negotiate with those managers listed above as to who should organise that game.

Eg. I can organise PU games for all my matches. However, when challenging T-Lit, or you, or Deano25 etc etc, I would have to discuss with them and one of us needs to organise that game.

Unless my calculations are incorrect, we should cover every game in this way.

Furthermore, what we could do now is go to the post by T-Lit in the scores thread, and T-Lit could simply bold each of the 8 managers listed above. Then we could remind everyone that these managers will be organising the games and noone else needs to.

This is only a suggestion, Wagner.

I knew there would be something I hadn't thought, and what you mentioned, especially your point 2 "2. Negotiate with those managers listed above as to who should organise that game" makes it more complicated than I originally thought it would be.
In any case people need to verify their schedule once they have finished organizing their matches (again, all: please do not start that process just yet!), but this makes it even more important - everyone needs to have 15 correct matches in their schedule, taking account not to count other PU matches or private league matches as being a HGL match.

I'm not sure I'd know how we can create a system where all matches would be organized, when we're dealing with this "8 challengers"-system. Let me present a theory and see what you think of it, would it work?

Let's take your list of 8 above as a starting point. Would all matches be played for the whole duration of regular season, if we do it the following way?:
1. Like you mentioned, first "The above 8 managers to organise every one of their PU games against teams not listed above", and then
2. Us who have volunteered as one of 8 challengers, would challenge each other the following way: each of us would challenge only the teams on the list that are below our team names. For instance, I would challenge all other teams (#2-8), then MrJ only teams #3-8, and so on, and following this method Paul George would only challenge #8 Chucarro, and Chucarro wouldn't need to challenge anyone from the list of 8 above.

Benefit of using method I here presented would be that we wouldn't have to have such negotiations who will challenge who, as such things are dreadful to do through forums, and all decisions made by any two managers then affect the need (or not needing) to arrange matches between other teams, which might make it a complicated mess in worst case scenario. Also, having to go through this every season is not desirable, so all please take a look at my system above (sections 1. and 2.) to see if it works that way or not.
Remember, it is important to get all matches played, so it's essential to plan everything correctly.

I still didn't count how many matches that would create, or if there's an error in my thinking that this method would create duplicates or leave some matches unplayed, but I guess we have 15 times 8 matches = 120 matches in our regular season of HGL.


Last edited by Wagner at 3/18/2025 5:48:10 AM

We needed 8 managers to do this for this method to be viable.

Already Volunteered:
1. Wagner
2. MrJ
3. Gccsteel
4.T-Lit
5. Moneta
6. Deano25
7. Paul George
8. Chucarro

We have 8!
[...]

I knew there would be something I hadn't thought, and what you mentioned, especially your point 2 "2. Negotiate with those managers listed above as to who should organise that game" makes it more complicated than I originally thought it would be.
In any case people need to verify their schedule once they have finished organizing their matches (again, all: please do not start that process just yet!), but this makes it even more important - everyone needs to have 15 correct matches in their schedule, taking account not to count other PU matches or private league matches as being a HGL match.

I'm not sure I'd know how we can create a system where all matches would be organized, when we're dealing with this "8 challengers"-system. Let me present a theory and see what you think of it, would it work?

Let's take your list of 8 above as a starting point. Would all matches be played for the whole duration of regular season, if we do it the following way?:
1. Like you mentioned, first "The above 8 managers to organise every one of their PU games against teams not listed above", and then
2. Us who have volunteered as one of 8 challengers, would challenge each other the following way: each of us would challenge only the teams on the list that are below our team names. For instance, I would challenge all other teams (#2-8), then MrJ only teams #3-8, and so on, and following this method Paul George would only challenge #8 Chucarro, and Chucarro wouldn't need to challenge anyone from the list of 8 above.

Benefit of using method I here presented would be that we wouldn't have to have such negotiations who will challenge who, as such things are dreadful to do through forums, and all decisions made by any two managers then affect the need (or not needing) to arrange matches between other teams, which might make it a complicated mess in worst case scenario. Also, having to go through this every season is not desirable, so all please take a look at my system above (sections 1. and 2.) to see if it works that way or not.
Remember, it is important to get all matches played, so it's essential to plan everything correctly.

I still didn't count how many matches that would create, or if there's an error in my thinking that this method would create duplicates or leave some matches unplayed, but I guess we have 15 times 8 matches = 120 matches in our regular season of HGL.

EDIT/addition for the last message, added here because of character limitations:
There must/may be some error in some part of my thinking, as 15 rounds of 8 matches should produce 120 matches. On the other hand, now that I tried to calculate how many matches would be played with this proposition of mine above, I reached the following conclusion, and please correct me if I'm wrong here:

First, 8 of us challengers would send challenges to 8 others not visible on the list, that should equal 8 times 8=64 matches. Then if I would send challenge 7 of us "challengers", MrJ 6 of us "challengers" and so on, that would create 28 more matches, which totals 28, so 64+28 equals only 92 matches, so 28 matches are still missing.

So now that the number of missing matches is exactly 28, would it be solved so that we would create a similar list of 8 "non-challengers" (who would still have to challenge some as you will see, but would have to use only 0-7 tokens per team), and based on their list position they would have to send similarly challenges as the "challengers" do, but within their own list of "non-challenger" teams only?

Seriously though, I agree, it will be a lot of info. I can't even use Buzzer Manager as the HGL isn't a formally recognised league by the program. This means doing it manually. I will see how I go. Doing the Top 8 salaries will be easy enough and somewhat time-consuming. But it will be great data. The Top 8 ages might be a little more challenging, especially if managers are firing and changing their lineups while I'm collecting the data.

Anyway, let's see how we go. I love data so it would be some nice info to have. [...]

Yes, it's a lot of info. Not necessary to do age comparison/count it if it feels too troublesome/arduous. If I have time, I can also look at that project, but I certainly can't make any promises.

However, if we would be talking about ages of players who are at the same time at the top 8 of each team salary list (as is the case here), it would be quite simple to do simultaneously while writing down (manually) top8 salaries of players. Yes, it is once more more manual work, as there are 8 times 16=128 top8 players in the league (unless someone has a smaller roster than 8), but requires less effort than if those two projects are done separately.
Then if we'd differentiate for instance top5 and top6-12 players, it would be another layer of work (again, interesting information, but I'm not expecting anyone to take over that project).
I love data too, so it's going to be an interesting to see at least salaries for teams!

Let me simplify and solve the challenging of teams.

Volunteer = team willing to schedule all games if necessary as they have plenty of tokens - 8 in total (see previous list).
Non-volunteer - the other 8 teams

Below is what we can go with:

1. I have taken into account the 8 managers/teams who have 'volunteered' to schedule all their matches. I have bolded each of their team names where they came up against a non-volunteer.

2. Now, each of these 8 volunteers also plays the other 7 volunteers. So, we can't split it evenly. Therefore, considering these volunteers already have enough tokens for every game, I don't think it matters if 4 of these volunteers schedule 4 games while the other 4 volunteers only schedule 3 games. We are splitting hairs.

Here is the finished and fair schedule taking into account the volunteers and non-volunteers:

RS Round 1:
WAG v TRO
LGM v BIG
ED v HAD
HCH v HEY
BUC v SUM
D v LMS
WMO v SRS
RAJ v SED

RS Round 2:
BIG v WAG
HAD v TRO
HEY v LGM
SUM v ED
LMS v HCH
SRS v BUC
SED v D
RAJ v WMO

RS Round 3:
WAG v HAD
BIG v HEY
TRO v SUM
LGM v LMS
ED v SRS
HCH v SED
BUC v RAJ
D v WMO

RS Round 4: Friday, April 11th, 2025
HEY v WAG
SUM v HAD
LMS v BIG
SRS v TRO
SED v LGM
RAJ v ED
WMO v HCH
D v BUC

RS Round 5:
WAG v SUM
HEY v LMS
HAD v SRS
BIG v SED
TRO v RAJ
LGM v WMO
ED v D
HCH v BUC

RS Round 6:
LMS v WAG
SRS v SUM
SED v HEY
HAD v RAJ
WMO v BIG
TRO v D
BUC v LGM
HCH v ED

RS Round 7:
WAG v SRS
LMS v SED
SUM v RAJ
HEY v WMO
HAD v D
BIG v BUC
TRO v HCH
LGM v ED

RS Round 8:
SED v WAG
RAJ v SRS
WMO v LMS
D v SUM
BUC v HEY
HCH v HAD
ED v BIG
LGM v TRO

RS Round 9:
WAG v RAJ
SED v WMO
SRS v D
LMS v BUC
SUM v HCH
HEY v ED
HAD v LGM
BIG v TRO

RS Round 10:
WMO v WAG
D v RAJ
BUC v SED
SRS v HCH
ED v LMS
SUM v LGM
TRO v HEY
BIG v HAD

RS Round 11:
WAG v D
WMO v BUC
RAJ v HCH
SED v ED
SRS v LGM
LMS v TRO
SUM v BIG
HEY v HAD

RS Round 12:
BUC v WAG
HCH v D
ED v WMO
LGM v RAJ
TRO v SED
BIG v SRS
HAD v LMS
HEY v SUM

RS Round 13:
WAG v HCH
BUC v ED
D v LGM
WMO v TRO
RAJ v BIG
SED v HAD
SRS v HEY
LMS v SUM

RS Round 14:
ED v WAG
LGM v HCH
TRO v BUC
D v BIG
HAD v WMO
RAJ v HEY
SUM v SED
LMS v SRS

RS Round 15:
WAG v LGM
ED v TRO
HCH v BIG
BUC v HAD
D v HEY
WMO v SUM
RAJ v LMS
SED v SRS


So, these are all the games where volunteers are involved. As you can see, it still leaves games where non-volunteers v non-volunteers. This means that all non-volunteers will still have 7 games to schedule. I will go through next those games and distribute them as fairly as possible.

With the above list, all volunteers are now scheduling either 11 or 12 games. That's as even as I can get it. Given we volunteers all have enough, whether it is 11 or 12 seems irrelevant.

I will now fairly distribute the non-volunteer games and finish the schedule.

Last edited by MrJ at 3/21/2025 4:23:59 AM