BuzzerBeater Forums

hmm... if you moved Lebron James down to #6 & expanded your list to 11 -- putting Kobe there -- we'd have 2 in common.
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my list was for the 2010-2011 season though. need to update it soon. (a couple of my picks have gotten too talented for the NBA & have taken a step up in competition. going to scout new replacements by listening to games on radio.)

I'd agree with you about moving Westbrook for Amare. I was having a hard time figuring out who I would put at 10. I gave Amare the nod because he's more "proven" but Westbrook is for sure pushing him, like you said the only thing about Westbrook is sometimes he makes too selfish of a play and it leads to some bad decisions. Living in Dallas my whole life, I am naturally a fan of the Mavericks, but I am a bigger fan of the game of basketball so that's where I don't have a bias in these rankings.

Even jordan with all the talent a player could wish 4, couldn't win one without a team. don't say championships cuz, dirk didn't win the mavericks did, same wit kobe last 2 years, lakerz won not kobe. i'm tlkn bout skills, experience, clutch, and that killer instinct which kobe has all and dirk has 2. stop arguing it's pointless you can't prove 2 me or n e one kobe isn't better than dirk!!!! keep tryn

finally, someone with some sense. that is why the heat r going 2 win the championship with the short season this year. they have the best TEAM

Last edited by Beast at 12/8/2011 7:43:49 PM

HAHA the heat win... nice joke in fact it was so funny ill even give you a +1. The heat arent going to win. Especially if lebron plays like he did in those playoff games last year. D. Wade might led them pretty far but lebron chokes and bosh's stats are WAAAAY down. Good Luck though heat, you never know.

I honestly have no clue how accurate this will end up. I think after this season, we'll get a better idea of where Durant should be (provided OKC can pick up a FA to push them to that 2nd level they weren't at), etc.

1. LeBron- Most talented, best player offensively and defensively in the league when he wants to be.
2. KD- Good shooter, great athlete, above average defensively.
3. Dirk- Clutch in clutch moments, wonderful shooter, fine defensively.
4. Kobe- Still doing it...should be interesting to see if he holds up.
5. Wade- Good all around player, maybe didn't do enough as possible in the Finals although he put up a good fight for Miami.
6- Paul- I'm good for checking out how he'll fare given Kobe the ball, although LAL's inside game may suffer.
7. Rose- World-class finishing skills, underrated defensively.
8. Williams- While stuck in a bad situation, still distributes well and plays adequate defense.
9. Howard- He'd be higher if he stopped blocking shots into the 10th row. Finishes well at the rim.
10. Westbrook- If he and KD can maintain a smart relationship at the end of games, OKC can be dangerous.

Interested in this season? I am.

I find it interesting that so many people still have Kobe at the top of these lists. It seems to me that Kobe's defense has gotten much worse this past year (perhaps even before that)...It might just be that I'm a big Kobe fan and watch him a lot more than other players, but I just remember too many times where I've been disappointed by his on-ball defense. I think D-Wade has probably taken over as best SG, even just on the offensive end of the floor.

I'm really interested in seeing how Kobe does this season though. One of the NBA broadcasters was talking about how Kobe's offensive would get much more opportunities now that he isn't in the triangle offense and forced to pass as often...

Also, to anybody that claims Lebron isn't even in the top 3, I think you are factoring in his lack of maintaining his level of play in big games way too much. For one, most of the players on your top 10's haven't even reached the big game moments where Lebron fell through. Number 2, just look at his offensive stats again. I'd have trouble naming 5 players in the league that can contribute that much on the offensive end. And that isn't even factoring in the fact that he is the most versatile defender in the game.

I'd say Jordan won with a team that was pretty weak on overall talent. Specialty players like B. J. Armstrong, Steve Kerr, John Paxson helped him a ton, no doubt. These were guys that could hit an open 3, and when Jordan drove... defenders were going to collapse and leave a shooter open.

Bill Winnington, Luc Longley and the numerous Centers they went through were, while good at banging bodies and playing tough, considered the weakest C's in the Play Offs. Guys like Ewing, Robinson and Hakeem the Dream were dominant centers, and guys like Bill Lambier played the same style the Bulls C's would play... except he played it much better.

The first 3 Championships the Bulls didn't have a Top Ten PG, PF or C. I'll grant SF, even though I feel Scottie Pippen was hugely over-rated. So basically you had a SG in Jordan, and a SF in Pippen. Not very talented as a Team, but with the most driven and dominant closer (and later to become most driven and dominant player) they were able to Win... a lot.

True, when they added Dennis Rodman to the mix for the next set of Trophies they became one of the most stacked teams in the NBA. True Star Power at it's finest. And it worked because Rodman didn't need to be passed the ball. If he wanted to score, he grabbed an Offensive Rebound. He was more focused on Defense, Rebounding, and shutting down the tough Big Man Match Up than anything. Rodman never looked for his own shot or to create unless needed (clock ticking down, etc). Replace Rodman with a PG that likes to shoot a lot and while you still may have a Championship Team it wouldn't have been as good as what they made it.

The 2nd 3-Peat your argument is very valid... the Bulls had the best Team hands down, as far as talent across the board. The first set of Championships... that was solid Role Players riding the ability of MJ to take over a game. Very similar to Cleveland with Lebron... except Jordan got Rings (which is why the comparisons of Lebron to Jordan coming in were so unfair, not everyone can take the limited Talent like the Bulls had and get that ring, nor should it be expected).

Fact is, Kobe was in a Decline last season. It happens. Might come out this season and destroy, moving back to 1-2-3. LAST SEASON, however, Dirk was better all around than Kobe. I've shown the numbers to prove it, the Head to Head that proves it, and add on the Ring to cement the argument.

All you've added is "stop arguing it's pointless you can't prove 2 me or n e one kobe isn't better than dirk!!!" which I find funny because after you tell me to stop arguing you tell me to "keep tryn".

Look, over their Careers Kobe still has the lead on Dirk. I admit that openly. Dirk is closing the gap, but it's not THAT close. If Kobe is down another 2-3 Seasons and Dirk stays at this level or improves, he COULD catch Kobe in the Long Run. Doubtful, but possible. Absolutely, over their Careers, Kobe is better.

We weren't talking Careers. We were discussing who right now (at the time this thread started) was better. While it is arguable that some were better than Dirk last season (some very good and well thought out arguments have been presented) Kobe wasn't one of them.

Last Season, Dirk was better than Kobe.

It happens. There were seasons where, as great as Jordan was, he wasn't the BEST player that year. Injury, off year, etc. He was always great, but not the greatest every year. And that would be practically impossible to pull off, so why expect that?

As great as Dirk is, he wasn't the biggest reason his team won. They've had Dirk. I think Tyson Chandler was the #1 Reason they became so tough... how Dirk and Dallas does with him heading to the Knicks will show a lot about how great Dirk can be. Don't get me wrong, Kidd and Terry were great in the Play Offs, but Chandler drove that Defense. His 1 and 2 are getting older... if Dirk can over come this then he'll close in on true grea

Last edited by KillerKell at 12/9/2011 6:26:39 PM

Please stop that.

I disagreed with you when started posting because I like Kobe and I like his game more than I like Dirk's game. However, you laid out enough statistics and combined them with a reasonable discussion of perspective and focused on last season. Now I'm forced to concede that you have a strong, convincing argument.

And I know this is the iternet and it is not supposed to happen but you actually changed my mind. *gasp* That doesn't really happen, does it?

Thank you. It does happen. :D

If you ask me, the Fan, then Charles Barkley is the best player of all time. Obviously, from an objective approach, this doesn't stand true. I love how he ran the floor, played both sides of the court, and dominated much taller players. Listed at 6'6" (same height as Jordan) he was a Top 10 Rebounder for his era, even a dominant force on the boards after he hurt his back and went to Houston. As a PF he had great range and could still get to the basket (sweet back down, I swear you could throw the ball in to Chuck and he could back you down the length of the entire court) and he even had rules changed because of him (5 Second Back Down happened because of Sir Charles). Still, all of this does not really make him the best every. That's just the fan in me loving it.

Just seeing Kobe go down the lane and slam it home even though everyone collapsed to help out is amazing. Watching him launch a 3 for the win is thrilling. We remember Success more than failure, unless that failure comes on the biggest stage. So every time we see Kobe hit a Game Winning Three from dang near off the court EMOTION sets in, and we forget the fact that he really is only an average (if that) 3 Point Shooter.

Watching Kobe is awesome, even in an off season last last year. He's a remarkable player, and I would stop the car if I saw just 1 play by him on the Play Ground... just stop the car and get out and watch. He's that type of player.

Seeing him spin to the lane and bring the pain is more ENTERTAINING than watching than watching Dirk hit 9-10 FTs on his way to 25 points. Dirk's game isn't 'sexy'. Kobe's game is 'sexy'.

That's what you fell for. The 'sexy' game. Looks really nice. And some times the 'sexy' game is also the BEST game. Jordan was 'sexy' on the court every season, and obviously many of those seasons it was also the best game. But flash isn't always the best. John Stockton was one of the top 5 PGs every year he was in the NBA, every single year. Not in any one of those many (12?) seasons was John Stockton ever 'sexy' on the court. Still, you'd be hard pressed to find a better PG in any given season.

Shaq was both over his career. Early on Shaq was 'sexy' on the court, dominating entire teams. You couldn't stop him from Dunking on everyone. And wow the shots he would block. Rebounds aren't really sexy, but he got all of those along with the dunks and blocks. Later in his career he adapted, like Jordan did later in his career (jumper over drive, etc) by backing you down and then fading or hooking instead of taking you all the way to the Basket. He wasn't 25 anymore, he had to change because physically he lost some of the quickness and explosiveness of his youth. Still, he was Dominant. Different style, same result.

You can love some one's game, some one's team, some one's style. That's being a fan, and we all are fans. But like another poster said, they love the GAME more than their Team. Without the Game, you wouldn't have the Team or the Players. So we have to be honest about the Game, because it is the most important thing.

I love Barkley, but the fact is while he was so much better than so many realize... he really wasn't better than Michael Jordan. And that's fine, because there aren't many (and some would say there aren't any) better than MJ.

Thank you for actually reading my posts and seeing my points, whether you agree with them or not.

And don't worry about disagreeing with me at the start. I've had my mind changed by solid arguments before. Usually when this happens I realize I had use my 'eyes' to judge, instead of researching and finding the truth.

They have the best PLAYERS. Hard to find a better trio of talent. They do not have a better TEAM (Dallas proved this). Now, if they can get the Chemistry down and Lebron can stop choking and making bad decisions, then the TEAM might actually gel and become the best TEAM.

Until that happens, they won't be the best team. They will win off of pure talent, but the best Teams will still defeat them.

Even last season, the Heat had more TALENT than the Mavs. Bosh ran into a tough defender in Chandler, but Bosh is overall BETTER than Chandler. Sure, Kidd and Terry are solid, but these are old players no longer in the prime. They used intelligence and experience to out play Lebron and Wade.

No way anyone on the Mavs could match up against Wade one on one. No way anyone outside of Chandler (long and quick) could hang with Lebron, who is used to playing smaller defenders. And if you put Tyson on Lebron, who is manning up Bosh? Dirk is a good HELP defender, but not a solid One on One Defender. Bosh and Lebron both own him 1-on-1.

On the flip side, Wade is one of the top Defensive Guards in the game. He could have shut down either Kidd or Terry had he locked in to one. How can you expect Kidd or Terry to get solid shots off over Lebron and his height/vert? Neither have the explosiveness (like the young J. J. Berrera) to go right at Lebron and create. So they SHOULD have been shut down. Yet Kidd played very well and Terry shot Lights Out. Dirk is a given, no one was stopping Dirk but Dirk. But Chandler couldn't own Bosh offensively (and he didn't)

So you got 3 guys that the Mavs shouldn't be able to stop. You got 1 guy the Heat shouldn't be able to stop. Yet the players for the Mavs did all the little things needed, including stepping up and challenging those Stars instead of given in and just passing the ball away, to win.

Heat: Better Talent. Mavs: Better Team.

Again, that was Last Season. Now, they Heat have a season of playing together and feeling each other out, this SHOULD help them play better together. Also the Mavs have lost a key piece (Chandler) to the Knicks. But the Mavs aren't the only team out there, and of all the 'Play Off Teams' only the Lakers have as bad of a Chemistry as the Heat.

This is sad, since both teams have had great Coaches (Riley, Jackson) that forged Chemistry and got more out of the talent they had than others could. Of the 2, the Heat are the easier fix... due to having more firepower over all. The Lakers are trying to change that by going after 2 more big stars for Kobe to team with... but that will likely take more than one season for it to be effective, they may well look like last year's Heat, enough Talent to get them all the way, but not enough TEAM to win it.

The Heat already faced that 'growing pain', the Lakers would just be starting them.

And in the end, all the Chemistry in the world doesn't matter if you don't have some kind of talent. Not every team will find a Chandler, Kidd, Terry or Berrera to surround their Stars.

Don't get me wrong, the Heat and Lakers will win. Probably both be in the Play Offs again. Kobe is to good not to get 40 wins and the Heat have to much Talent to lose enough in the regular season not to make it. It's in that Championship game where I worry about these teams, where likely they would fall to teams with lesser records.