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Hello HG teams!

...it went dark here for awhile. I hope all teams are doing well as we move into the second half of Season 67.

So, with the Allstar break behind us, and the second half of the season in front of us, I think we should finalise the HGL as the start of Season 68 (when the HGL is set to begin) will arrive soon!
[....]

Wagner, or someone else will need to:

1. Set the rules and regulations for teams and games

2. Decide on whether MVP votes will be done, how and monitor it.


Anything else?

Hello again, and sorry for delay. Sometimes "real life" gets in the way. Of course I'm still in. Sometimes there are times when I need to divide my attention to many places, and then BB can suffer from that. And like I mentioned in PM to you, sometimes it can happen that I don't react to messages immediately if there aren't any that require immediate action ((such as your last forum post/opinion about "rating" teams (whether or not teams have purchased players in their roster and received some salary benefit by doing so, which, in short, I still have the same view on - we should be open about the financial benefits that teams have acquired through buying back their own players)).

I just noticed your forum message written Feb 16th as BB this time didn't decide give me visual notice about new forum messages (I have no idea why it sometimes gives visual reminder in a form of a red number and sometimes it doesn´t). So I noticed there seem to have been some new plans, that have already started forming, after not being responded in 4 days.

I am and will be part of this original BBHG league project, but I'll also let everyone know here in the forum; not hearing from me immediately doesn't mean I would've withdrawn. In such unlikely event, I will let people know here in the forum and not just disappear.

Having said that, like you mentioned, start of the BBHG league is closing in so we should start putting in more effort to finalize rules, penalties etc., and I can take a loot at these things with bit more time on my hands now.

After careful consideration of what has occurred here in this forum, including the effort put in by managers like Wagner and Demars etc, and all those who have conversed here, as well also appreciating the challenges of creating a HG League using the Pick-Up tokens system, I have decided to create a Private League for 100% HG teams to compete in while the PickUp version continues to be worked on.

Both kinds of leagues (PickUp and Private) can run parallel to one another. This has some great benefits:

Those who are Supporters and 100% HG can compete in the Private League (link will be found here soon to the forum) and not worry about the issues a PickUp system creates. Eg. Setting of games, results etc etc.

A Private League will also allow the greater HG community to see (via the newly created forum) the results and interest HG leagues and teams are generating. This helps the PickUp HG League too as those managers who do not have supporter, can still compete with their HG team in the system being formed in this forum.

In fact, HG teams who have supporter, could perhaps compete in both the PickUp and Private Leagues.

[....]

EDIT: See bolded text: PL to start at beginning of next season.

If I may give my opinion on this, after stating the obvious: this is not an attack in any form, even if it would sound like it as my opinions seem to differ on some parts. Opinions here should be taken with the understanding of me having high appreciation towards you - I see you as a smart and considerate person based on forum and BB mail messages, and I'm sure practically we all appreciate the major contribution you've given (and luckily will likely keep giving) to the HG community.

Having said that, I'd like to share some opposing views especially in terms of running parallel leagues.

FWIW: I do not have any means to try to prevent anyone from playing a homegrown private league.
However, I want to mention couple of things, why I consider this counterproductive and actually harmful for both leagues especially in long term.

So I quite strongly think this actually is a negative thing to run parallel leagues, as then it mixes up things even more. The "competition" on which one is the "real"/"true/"better" homegrown league starts eventually, and it divides attention to 2 different leagues, in terms of mental attention and in practical participation to the league(s) - I don't see all teams wanting to participate in 2 leagues.

It's like running 2 different "champions league" (or actually regular season) type of competitions parallel - it takes away from both leagues. Having a HG private league is something one could've had starting from season 1, and it's nothing to do with what I've planned here and what this conversation to begin with has been about (at least on my part). It was the whole point initially to make 1 league, and 1 league only that does never require you to have been purchased anything in order to be able to participate.

I know we do not have experience about possible challenges of organizing PU matches, but I suppose it shouldn't be a huge hassle as we discussed earlier, as long as teams are willing to do the work required (setting up PU matches) couple of times per season (plus playoffs time).

Also, given that the HG community isn't huge, it is less realistic to be able to run 2 different, but same kind of leagues parallel from year to year. And as many people are comfort seeking personalities, PL in that sense is easier that you don't have to do anything, and therefore having "a side/parallel HG private league" running simultaneously would be very bad for the actual BBHG league (in my eyes) in the long run. Also, the commitment to the leagues, and meaning of the results/games would be less if more than 1 such leagues would be run simultaneously. (While not perfect example, think NBA - what's the meaning of one regular season match when you play 82 of them)?

Doesn't seem to be anyone really engaged here and I'm not doing it all alone.

Maybe a HomeGrown Private League will have to be created?

Would be nice and easy. I could create quickly at start of next season for all those HG teams who can play :-)

I know that feeling - that's why it was so great to get you aboard to begin with. BBHG league (not PL league, the actual league) comes with some organizational work, and even though we don't have experience about how much work it'll cause for the administrator/staff, I believe it'd be best to share some tasks if possible.

I already mentioned this in another forum post, but not commenting to your February 16th post before today didn't mean that I would've ditched the original BBHG league, and this turn that took place in 3-4 days time window might not be a positive direction in terms of longevity of the original BBHG league vision/idea that we have been discussing about since the later part of 2024.

The original BBHG league is likely the only league I will likely ever be working on, so all my efforts will go towards this league. Having said that, being HG team means in my case having to spend countless of hours per season towards avoiding relegation in my regular BB league - a time which is away from the all the other stuff (such as forming a structure/rules for the new BBHG league and trying to give thoughful replies to forum posts). But we still have quite a lot time before season starts, so together we will get things started in terms of original BBHG league, which I acually hope would be the only BBHG league that will start.

If for some reason "the train cart" that has taken a new direction between 16th and 20th of February (in terms of plans of a HG private league by MrJ) couldn't be made to join the original train from which it departed from (like I mentioned, I think it's way, way better for both leagues if we'd focus on this one original league only to make it long lived league - we have enough competition in terms of things within and outside of BB, so that's I see it as counterproductive to create "competition within HG community"), then at the very least it should have completely another forum thread into where conversation will go. Having said that, this another forum thread would be a stitch in a would sized of a whale, so it doesn't remove all the other problems associated with running parallel leagues.

It is good to hear from you again, Wagner. I apologise if you thought I was upset with your lack of presence recently. I was actually referring to the thread in general rather than you specifically. If you or I aren't posting, it seems silent. This doesn't bode well, in my opinion, for having managers assist in completing this PU version of a HG League. This is why I have put the whole Private League question out there.

I must say that I understand where you are coming from in everything you have noted. However, I am not sure whether I have the energy to continue working through the PickUp system knowing that it will always be reliant on a couple of managers to orchestrate everything, while relying on all participating managers to do their part with pickup tokens (the core of the system) and, as such, is prone to mistakes and failure.

With a Private League version, there cannot be any mistakes after the league is launched, other than managers not fielding 100% HG players. Yet, I have prepared a couple simple consequences for that. Which leads me to the rules and regulations we were discussing for the PU system...where we don't seem to agree on the level of complexity the rules require. I prefer simple.

I think we have a difference of opinion here as I envisaged the HG League being run simply with minimal complications for managers. I also appreciate that you want a PU system rather than a Private League as you do not have supporter and have been honest and upfront about the HG League being free and accessible for everyone. Previously, I have agreed with that. However, as I started to go over everything we have discussed and debated in this forum in regards to setting this HG League up, I started to feel that there were too many extra considerations/problems that aren't an issue at all if a PL is utilised instead.

As it stands right now I am torn. On the one hand I want to continue what I have started in helping you and others create the PU version of the HGL simply because I don't like to quit and it would provide a 'free' league for all; yet, on the other hand, I really like the low-maintenance a PL provides, which is already familiar, organised and ready-to-go.


Therefore, I am simply going to ask this question to all of those managers who have been participating in this forum, are still taking the time to read these posts, and are still keen to play in a HG League:


Do managers want us to finalise this PickUp version of the HG League, or would they prefer a HG Private League instead?

Wagner, you and I have been so busy 'deciding' the elements of the HG league, that we have not given full voice to those wishing to participate...specifically, what form it should take.

Last edited by MrJ at 2/22/2025 4:44:12 AM

Hello !

I couldn't play in any Private League, cos' I'm not supporter.
We did prepare everything to manage a PickUp League, so ... here we go !
We could even start tomorrow (yes tomorrow) with 4 teams, just for testing.

I think we talked too much, now we should act, simply but firmly ;)

I completely agree.

Good to hear from you demars (and of course from you MrJ as well), one of the managers that have most actively kept this forum thread active!

@demars:
I do want to add, or basically repeat my previous opinion here: I do not think we should do any kind of testing in form of running a league, other than "on paper" and planning it as well as possible. We have one shot to start it, and will never get another one. So let's do it with style... :) I understand people are wanting to play, but start of next season will come soon enough in my opinion. So to all: don't worry, we will get there soon.

@ MrJ: I really like and appreciate your lengthy responses, and I hope your style never changes on that. I prefer thorough, thoughtful responses any day. However, as I'd want to also give thorough replies, it sometimes (now, for instance) creates a problem as today I don't have enough time to do so. But progress things even a tiny bit, I'll give partial reply here.

(The problem with these shorter replies is though, that in many cases I've noticed people won't get my point as clearly, or the conversation sometimes takes turn into an undesirable direction unless I open my thought patterns/reasons behind my reasoning immediately. Doing that on the other hand takes lots of time, but which I hope will pay off for instance by other people agreeing with the reasoning more easily if they clearly see where I'm coming from and see that I've given thought to multiple views/opinions before reaching some given conclusion).

Yes, we have been busy planning, and maybe therefore not taking every possible effort to ask an opinion from all managers. But as for opinions on different aspects of the league go, I think we have also asked numerous questions on different aspects and also given the community a lot of chances and encouraged them to voice their opinions, but have not received all that many opinions, especially ones with further explanations (on where some opinions of them stems from/is based on, why it would/wouldn't be a good decision etc.). So I take it that most managers would probably be willing to accept the basics of the league, or are for one reason or another reluctant to participate in public conversation on this topic.

On the other hand, maybe there's also this thing/aspect that as at the later part of 2024 I threw out in the public this idea of establishing BBHG league, I do have some somewhat strong and clear opinions how this BBHG league should look like, and therefore I might be up for creating some of the base work (such as what was done in league system part - the 12 team playoffs etc.) and see how people would take it/accept it. Having said that, we can in many cases follow the real life rules and/or BB-rules (however, those differ from country and from continent to continent on some parts) and I guess on most part, rules/penalties differing from typical Buzzerbeater or "real life rules" would mostly concern the homegrown aspect of the league (especially penalty wise).
As for planning of rules etc.: like I mentioned, I'd be willing to create some structure on it (with MrJ? BBMail?) and see how people receive propositions.

And then all important question for all... Would you please consider the following, and list all the problems we ever could face in the Pickup game style league, as that's what this league is all about? You can send them here in the forum, or by BB-Mail.
I'm asking this because myself and MrJ could miss some key aspects, as we do not have experience on running such league, and having a clear understanding on what can go wrong helps us to create
- clear league structure (which is basically already almost finalized given that people will agree with 12 team playoff format, which I understood they do),
- league rules, and
- league penalty system (different penalties for violations, as dealing things only on case by case basis would also trigger someone to claim they have been treated unequally)

I apologise if you thought I was upset with your lack of presence recently. I was actually referring to the thread in general rather than you specifically. If you or I aren't posting, it seems silent. This doesn't bode well, in my opinion, for having managers assist in completing this PU version of a HG League. This is why I have put the whole Private League question out there.

Thank you for your consideration - I didn't thought you were upset with me, I just were surprised of the change of focus in discussion (towards the private league). But you nailed your point - if neither us have been sending messages, it has been more or less silent, of which I've raised my "concerns" already before. Which of course leads to another challenge of PU league and it's commissioner/staff - if people are not willing to post much on the forum, I'm not sure how many/how much anyone would be interested in helping with the administrative (commissioner) duties.

Like I mentioned before, in terms of the homegrown league that we have planned:
A) I wouldn't expect "regular" BBHG league managers to take over staff duties (if no other way, and if you, MrJ, don't have time/energy to take over some duties, then I suppose I'll see during the first season if it proves to be too much work - I don't like to give up easily either but there's limit for all),
B) I don't have experience on running such league, so I couldn't tell if it's doable alone/by two managers in terms of work load in the long run
C) I wouldn't mind if BBHG would become official part of BB, but owners haven't commented on this forum
D) Private league will never be able to replace this league I suggested, by being free to all. In terms of everything else than fixed (?) league system it's a lot more low maintenance than Pickup game league (BBHG) like you mentioned.

I must say that I understand where you are coming from in everything you have noted. However, I am not sure whether I have the energy to continue working through the PickUp system knowing that it will always be reliant on a couple of managers to orchestrate everything, while relying on all participating managers to do their part with pickup tokens (the core of the system) and, as such, is prone to mistakes and failure.

As it stands right now I am torn. On the one hand I want to continue what I have started in helping you and others create the PU version of the HGL simply because I don't like to quit and it would provide a 'free' league for all; yet, on the other hand, I really like the low-maintenance a PL provides, which is already familiar, organised and ready-to-go.

I totally get that. Like I mentioned before, if I'd have enough money, I'd just buy everyone supporter package instead and do it as a private league. But, and this is a very important point, as long as not everyone willing (and qualified) to participate aren't able to participate due to not being supporter, I would't dare to call myself a champ playing in such league; it'd be an invitational/pay to participate-league for the ones willing to throw in the cash. A total no-no for me. Just as would be 2 same leagues competing with each other (PL and PU simultaneously).

I do read your message somewhat in between the lines too, and of course agree that low-maintenance part (probably even more so after likely being a commissioner for whole season), and I kind of sense that you use word "free" due to time not being free, and time consuming it surely can be.

So I think I understand with what you mean by being torn. I'm not torn though, as this seems only way to get it done. I am, however, worried that if you do decide to withdraw your contribution towards the league, that how much work it will become for one person. But I guess only time would tell, and if we create good enough systems for everything (certain rules, certain methods for sending box scores of games etc.) maybe it'll still remain reasonably manageable.

I must say that I understand where you are coming from in everything you have noted. However, I am not sure whether I have the energy to continue working through the PickUp system knowing that it will always be reliant on a couple of managers to orchestrate everything, while relying on all participating managers to do their part with pickup tokens (the core of the system) and, as such, is prone to mistakes and failure.

It is indeed prone to mistakes and failure. Frankly, I don't like that side of Pickup league either. But as I said, I don't see any other way to get this done than by organizing Pickup games. Unless we have some bitcoin millionaire here playing with us who wants to fund a supporter for each willing participant. :D

Back to the mistake and failure prone system: this leads us to two things mentioned earlier.
First, we'd prefer certain commitment from the managers that join the league.
Second, due to our hopes of that not having more than a slight effect to the end result, I think there needs to be set of rules and penalties to discourage managers to make this BBHG league a wrong kind of playground, from which other managers would then suffer.
Penalties for violations exist for a reason, as you and demars, being teachers, very well know. :) I'm all for not having locks in doors, but unfortunately world doesn't run that way, and therefore I find that there needs to be consequences, especially as basically nothing will come by surprise (given that we create good enough rules and penalties - section for our new league).

Also, like you (and I) mentioned, it is not ideal that league is so dependent on "staff" of 1-2, given than no one of us works for BB and likely the amount of work included will be somewhat considerable. We all also have some restrictions, with which we have to live with - for instance, I already warn everyone, that if and when I'd be a league commissioner, I do not have the habit of logging on each and every day so you will not most likely get super quick answer to all your questions and comments. Expecting more traffic on the forum and in BB mail would cause me to login more often though, but just a word of warning already before for you guys who have used to receiving replies within minutes or hours to all their messages.

With a Private League version, there cannot be any mistakes after the league is launched, other than managers not fielding 100% HG players. Yet, I have prepared a couple simple consequences for that. Which leads me to the rules and regulations we were discussing for the PU system...where we don't seem to agree on the level of complexity the rules require. I prefer simple.

Can you elaborate on what kind of consequences you prepared? I can then write some thoughts here in the forum or by BBmail.

I see the positive side of simple rules. However, also this is the problem: even this kind of league isn't super simple if you consider what kind of problematic scenarios this Pickup game league system could create. Having simple solutions for complicated problem scenarios sounds good on paper, but even theoretically achieving that would require especially good pre planning so that one could anticipate all possible problem scenarios.
Simple is also problematic in that sense, that if it's due to some situation that's not mentioned/written in rules/penalties-section, it eventually forces commissioner/staff to make penalty decisions totally "a case by case basis", which may lead to harsh criticism as such decisions will likely not become equal(ly strict) to all.
NCAA (which also has hundreds of basketball programs running) is pretty good example - they do have several different levels on their punishments/penalties, which effectively makes breaking rules less beneficial/tempting.

All managers: Would you send thoughts on what kind of problematic scenarios we could face in BBHG league when organizing it as a Pickup game league?

Thank you for those 3 people who have commented here so far about which they prefer...a PickUp system or a Private League version of the HG League.

@ demars and Hadar. Thanks for your responses. I respect your reasons.

We still have more than 10 people who are yet to voice their opinion.

@ Wagner. Regarding the simple rules and regulations:

I believ that while we can spend the remainder of the weeks fine-tuning all the little consequences for those managers who do not uphold the expectations of participating in the HG league, I propose we begin with trust and simplicity:

As I noted in a previous post, I have been preparing a PL, too, just in case people are wanting this to go ahead. However, PL rules would differ to PU rules (see below). For a PU system, regarding rules and consequences, I would suggest a simple way to deal with any managers not playing by the rules in terms of fielding HG players. This is the most likely problem we will face other than managers not setting PickUp games in time. That, I believe, can be solved with the Commissioner sending reminder bbmails weeks prior to them being needed to be set. If these reminders are done, I doubt we will have any managers not getting it done.

So, to the consequences I mentioned:

(i) Any team which plays non-HG player(s) in any game during the HG League will receive a bbmail (from the Commissioner) reminding them about the HG rules we run this league under. They have time to fix this by either selling or firing any player(s) which is not HG and should not be on their team. Any players who are not HG need to be fired or sold before the next PU game. If the player is for sale, and the sale date is after the start of the next PU game, the player is not allowed to play in that game or any others until they are fired or sold.

(ii) Any team that plays a non-HG player(s) in more than 1 game, despite being reminded through a bbmail by the commissioner, will not be invited to play in the following season.




Last edited by MrJ at 2/23/2025 2:04:41 AM

So, these are simple and, in my opinion, fair. Yes, they could be far more complex. And we could certainly list countless other consequences for a range of varying indiscretions. However, I think we should approach this HG League with the following in mind:

1. Managers are HG-minded and here to compete against other HG teams.
2. Trust is given, not earned. That is, we begin the league by assuming they will do the right thing.
3. We are all human, make mistakes, and will respond well if respected.


So, keep it simple!

I have also come to appreciate a great advantage the PU system has over the PL version, and this dovetails neatly to what I have just said about the positive attitude we should have for this league regarding rules.

In a PL, everything is done for you. That is, once the schedule (away/home) and number of games has been decided, then the teams invited and accepted, everything else become automated. This can be a positive, but there is one great negative to this:

If a team, or teams, break the HG rules(s) and we wish for those game results to not be counted, we can simply ignore those game results in a PU league. We cannot do that in a PL league as it will run until it is finished even if teams deliberately break the rules in some or every game!

Therefore, a PU system will allow us to count or disregard weekly games where the rules were broken if we deem this part of the consequences. That is, we could amend the 2 simple consequences I listed above to state the following:


Rule Breaks and Their Consequences:

(i) Any team which plays non-HG player(s) in any game during the HG League will receive a bbmail (from the Commissioner) reminding them about the HG rules we run this league under (Warning) AND have their result for that game recorded as a 0-50 LOSS. They have time to fix this by either selling or firing any player(s) which is not HG and should not be on their team. Any players who are not HG need to be fired or sold before the next PU game. If the player is for sale, and the sale date is after the start of the next PU game, the player is not allowed to play in that game or any other game.

(ii) Any team that plays a non-HG player(s) in more than 1 game, despite being reminded through a bbmail by the commissioner (warning), will receive a 0-50 LOSS for that game and be immediately disqualified* from playing in the competition.

*DISQUALIFIED TEAMS:

A) When a team is disqualified, ALL games they have competed in up until and including the game that disqualified them...will be altered to a 0-50 loss.
B) If PU games have already been scheduled with a disqualified team, those games, regardless of their actual results, will also be altered to reflect 0-50 losses.
C) All future scheduled games with a disqualified team that are yet to be set, will become 50-0 wins for that team.


This was my idea for the PU system. It would be much different in a PL league, where this amount of control does not exist until the season is finished.

Last edited by MrJ at 2/23/2025 2:12:24 AM