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BB tactics from best to worst

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This Post:
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298868.29 in reply to 298868.28
Date: 5/8/2019 3:38:15 AM
The Defenders
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
473473
Second Team:
The D-fenders
how often does LI lose to other tactics at the top level, predicted or not and how do the other tactics do under the same evaluation.

i'll just add one thing on this part
LI does not lose to another offensive tactic as it goes up against defensive tactics.

if a team A plays LI and m2m and the opponent (team plays OI and 2-3 , team A lost, but the offensive tactic lost to the 2-3 zone.

i know it seems like i am nitpicking your statement but the conclusion should be read differently.

the best offensive tactics are not better as one is more resource demanding than another, but defensive tactics are the true indicator of what offenses work the best.
unfortunately, good OD offsets almost completly outside tactics. if you have od 10on big men you could care less what the other team is playing (RnG Motion Patient or whatever)
wheas inside tactics require not only id but also SB, also some OD on the opposing passer and it is harder to stop.


i think a solution to this would be either to nerf OD to loosen up outside tactics effectiveness, or bump up SB/ID to offset inside offenses

This Post:
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298868.31 in reply to 298868.30
Date: 5/9/2019 1:41:10 AM
The Defenders
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
473473
Second Team:
The D-fenders
so by *your* understanding of *my* reasoning, if an opponent has OD 6 and ID 12, you would still attack inside because LI is the bast and that is your best skillset.


as for can't win w defence. maybe ask your self if you understand game mechanics when a lucky fan comes into the game and scores agains od 17.

as for comparing offenses just among themselves, all i can say is like if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, DEFENSE will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

This Post:
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298868.32 in reply to 298868.30
Date: 5/9/2019 1:46:20 AM
The Defenders
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
473473
Second Team:
The D-fenders
Unfortunately basketball is a two way game where the team that scores the most wins.

Therefore whoevers offense did the best, surely defense a factor, wins.


dont want to get into a further argument as i already switched priority to low on this thread.

a perfect analogy to what you said, but in real life, to be clear, is the following.

unfortunately basketball is a game that prioritizes playing tall guys.
therfore whoever is bigger wins. surely leaping ability matter as you can be tall and weigh 150kg and not jump more than a french fry, but height is still the trump card.

i am in the wrong for engaging in a subjective and relative argument. this is not even philosophy.
i agree w the rankings of the offenses based on the most frequent skillsets available and what defenses are being played today. some miught come to the same conclusion based on different arguments. it really does not matter. niether to you or me why others think you the other is wrong, short sighted or narrow minded, even more so when we agree.


From: Poka

This Post:
33
298868.35 in reply to 298868.34
Date: 6/9/2019 5:17:55 AM
Pokerroom
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
66
Interesting thread.I used to play this game back in the days but then got bored.

Having played similar manager games before i have come to the conlcusion that there is rarely a better offense.It's more about which offense will give you the best results with the players you have.I dont want to reveal too much but consider this : every offense has an algorithm that gives different importance on certain skills per position.

So offense A has a factor of 1.2 for SG jump range while offense B has 1.4 factor for the same stat/position.

Now the same offense A has a factor of 2 for PF passing while offense B has 0.6 for PF passing.

Same thing goes on and on for every skill in every position.

Now we dont know the formula.If we did we could easily calculate which offense is best for our team and the stats our players have.

Here's the real problem.When everyone trains their players the same,people start believing that Look inside is the best offense.That is true but only because all good guards have inside shot nowdays but no jump range.I have been trying to find some good JR passing combinations and seems like noone has that.

So nowdays every top team has a balanced player in each position and whoever has played the more/gathered the more money wins the title until a team that had been tanking for long enough comes along with more money to have more balanced players or bigger roster depth.

Players with a driving level of 1 can still be used efficiently in the proper attack where the factor of driving on that tactic in the specific position is the lowest.

The true beauty of this game is to find the way the formula works and suddenly start winning games with simingly worst roster just because your tactic suited you better and it seems to me like even 10 real life years later noone has actually come much closer to understand what every tactic needs in every position they just go for the all around players again.


From: GM-hrudey

To: Poka
This Post:
33
298868.36 in reply to 298868.35
Date: 6/9/2019 2:29:19 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229

Here's the real problem.When everyone trains their players the same,people start believing that Look inside is the best offense.That is true but only because all good guards have inside shot nowdays but no jump range.I have been trying to find some good JR passing combinations and seems like noone has that.
[...]
The true beauty of this game is to find the way the formula works and suddenly start winning games with simingly worst roster just because your tactic suited you better and it seems to me like even 10 real life years later noone has actually come much closer to understand what every tactic needs in every position they just go for the all around players again.


Well, while I agree that a lot of it is based on player composition, there is also a fundamental flaw with the engine in terms of outside offenses - shot selection appears to be too constrained by the engine. For example, if you look at my team, I am currently now in the top league in the USA - pretty fortunate to be there, of course, but fairly competitive because my team is obnoxiously highly trained in JR and SB. I almost exclusively face outside zones and outside predictions on GDP, and my team still shoots higher from 3 than from 2 (right now .362 from ouside vs. .358 for all shots). And yet, my team still attempts twice as many two point shots as three point shots, simply because the engine parameters don't appear to be flexible enough to actually let a team that is built exclusively to jack up contested threes do so other than the last minute of the game. And I think it'd be difficult to put together a team more likely to want to shoot threes than this - I wanted to see if it was possible to steer the shot selection toward threes and did everything I could to discourage any other type of shot.

Part of the problem, too, is that training inside scoring guards is easy. One on one training gives training to up to six guys, in handling and driving and inside shot if you go that route, at a high speed, and set up the elastic effect for other skills. Training outside shooting trains half as many players, at a low speed to boot, and then the elastic effect seems to hurt even more (based on my training my guys for their first three seasons in JR). And then when you factor in OD, well, JR + JS + OD is a surefire way to get into the SG salary formula, and if you get all three high the salary shoots up, while punting JR and DR + HA + IS plus ridiculous OD is much cheaper (and effective) on the PG formula.

But when you get past all of that, you also get a bonus to rebounding when you play an inside offense, and LI draws fouls at a much higher rate than outside offenses (which, to my eternal chagrin, do seem to also commit a lot of offensive fouls, even though I have guys who rarely otherwise commit a lot of fouls). I think there was a correction early on in the life cycle of the game, where it used to be outside offense was overpowered, and for pretty much the entirety of my time here, it's been pretty much inside or bust.




This Post:
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298868.38 in reply to 298868.37
Date: 6/10/2019 1:26:13 PM
Smallfries
III.14
Overall Posts Rated:
419419
Second Team:
Smallfries II
Here's the thing about SB I'm noticing, as well as ID.

SBing at a higher level than ID results in better usage of SB. I think most people believe that SB has to be equal to ID. Problem with that is GE tries to pick the best action based on the skills. In my observation, the GE will pick ID over SB. What that means is your player will get in position to defend, but then he won't necessarily contest the shot. When SB is higher than ID, the GE will decide to defend the shot rather than get into a good defensive position. This results in shots being blocked, but also results in SB going against the opponents offense to defend the shot which results in misses not seen as a statistic.

Because of this, I really don't think ID over 10 or 11 is needed. I forget what NBBA team it was, but several seasons ago there was a manager than had no more than ID of 10 on a big man. His theory is that ID above that resulted in very little additional defense compared to much higher levels. For example, a guy may shoot 60% against 10ID, but shoot 56% against 18ID. Those 8 additional ID pops aren't worth the time or salary.

On the flip side, if you have 10ID and 18SB, for example, the defender will get into position with 10ID, but the GE sees the best chance of stopping the shot with his 18 SB. Therefore I believe that 10/18 (ID/SB) could defend better than the 18/18 (ID/SB) because the SB will be utilized more based on the GE selection of skills.

This Post:
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298868.39 in reply to 298868.38
Date: 6/10/2019 3:02:42 PM
Vilkiukai
LBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
471471
Second Team:
Vilkiukai II
Thats the issue with LI tactics. 60, 58 or 56% is still elite efficiency. Anything over 52 true shooting percentage in this game used to be elite. Nothing had changed since season 23 when i quited, slightly more skillfull players.

The only way to defend LI is try to minimize shots the C, PF and SF take. It could be done by having absurdry high OD stats on guards. But that could be countered by having high driving skills for centers. Thats the way players built had changed during 23 seasons. Higher driving for centers, everything else the same. Never bothered either to have elite ID or SB either. Had been playing div 2 with 12 ID 7-10SB centers, everyone kept rolling around 56-58%...around the same as agains 18ID...

Even the best Li guards tend to shoot bellow 50 % like 48,5 mostly, because high OD of opponents and low passing skills to make their salaries managable. Best bet to defend shot is to force not to take it. better force guards chuck bricks from midrange with 8 JR.

Last edited by Vilkai [LTU NT] at 6/10/2019 3:05:18 PM

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