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...which is what I tell myself every time I have flashbacks of dropping pop-ups in little league.

Coach told you to use two hands , but you were out there hot doggiing it...

It seems as MJ is as infallible as the pope now....i don't know, Jordan may have been the greatest player ever, but its debatable. Was he really better than Wilt or Magic or Russell or Mars Blackmon?

i'd take wilt out of the discussion. of course he is one of the alltimegreats but potentially losing just for pushing his stats... great example of teamwork and sportmenship ;-)

the question is if you could have stop him with a lot 7 footer, i see just very small pieces of his play on youtube - but he was very agile played Point Guard(ok at the harlem globetrotters) but he had a skillset to stretch the game. And i don't have so much pace adjusted stats, but his stats was also of the board in his era.

And about Jilt-the-Stilt i never saw his old free throws, but they changed the rule of them because of him when i remember right - if someone have footage of it and how his free throws are leading to dunks would be intresting for me.

Overall i think the stilt. have a good shot in the goat discussion - especially when it comes to individual ability(and don't forget in the beginning of MJ career he was stated to egoistic to win anything, and did his game change that much in direction or was it just the observation with the succes and better teammates?)

It is very hard for me to judge Russell and Wilt because I never saw them play. I think both deserve to be in the discussion. I am unwilling to accept the consesus of a bunch of sports writers etc. who suggest that Wilt was only chasing individual numbers, because in my experience, they;re often more about telling a good story than the objective truth.

As for MJ, everyone seems to remember the championship MJ -- but before that, he took a lot of heat and a lot of shots and missed a lot of buckets. To paraphrase Colbert....great player or greatest player? But like I said, its a debate -- one which Lebron might eventually be the answer too. Honestly, if you had a pick one player who was a champion from season one in the NBA, it would have to be Magic. MJ had a lot of learning to do. So does Lebron, evidently.

MJ had a lot of learning to do

Sure, he had a lot of learning to do but in his first season:

Win Shares
1. Larry Bird*-BOS 15.7
2. Michael Jordan*-CHI 14.0

Player Efficiency Rating
1. Larry Bird*-BOS 26.5
2. Michael Jordan*-CHI 25.8

From the time he joined the bulls, even up to the year prior to them winning the championship, look at the 2nd/3rd highest PER on his team:

84-85:
Player PER
Michael Jordan 25.8
Orlando Woolridge 19.5
Quintin Dailey 15.2

85-86 (injured, played only 18 games)
Player PER
Michael Jordan 27.5
Orlando Woolridge 19.6
Quintin Dailey 18.1

86-87
Player PER
Michael Jordan 29.8
Sedale Threatt 16.2
Charles Oakley 14.2

87-88
Player PER
Michael Jordan 31.7
Sam Vincent 16.1
Charles Oakley 15.4

88-89
Player PER
Michael Jordan 31.1
Craig Hodges 14.9
Scottie Pippen 14.9

89-90
Player PER
Michael Jordan 31.2
Horace Grant 16.6
Scottie Pippen 16.3

From the time he joined the bulls, even up to the year prior to them winning the championship, look at the 2nd/3rd highest PER on his team:

Lets run these for lebron (yeah, it's beating a dead horse, at this moment in time, to say LBJ isn't as good as MJ):

03-04
Player PER (LBJ was 19 his first year, compared to MJ who was 21)
Carlos Boozer 20.8
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 20.2
LeBron James 18.3

04-05
Player PER
LeBron James 25.7
Drew Gooden 19.7
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 19.5

05-06
Player PER
LeBron James 28.1
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 21.9
Drew Gooden 17.6

06-07
Player PER
LeBron James 24.5
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 18
Drew Gooden 16.5

07-08
Player PER
LeBron James 29.1
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 18.7
Joe Smith 14.9

08-09
Player PER
LeBron James 31.7
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 18
Mo Williams 17.2

I wonder if LBJ would have been more successful getting the team he had his first 2 years later in his team with cleveland. surprised how bad his supporting cast was in 07-08, almost as bad as MJ's in 08-09.

So if teammates matter now...what's wrong with Lebron seeking out good ones to help him win a championship?