BuzzerBeater Forums

I agree with Qaaph Zyld, it is unrealistic that a good outside shooter can't hit a free throw.

There should be a minor change in both JS and JR training, something like, every 12-15 trainings in JS or JR = 1 up in FT.And since inside players don't take JS/JR trainings as much as outside players, they would (in average) have a little less FT skill than outside players which is also realistic.

It's also unrealistic that a player can be a professional player from age 18 until age 30, miss all of his FTs and never have his coach attempt to make him practice FTs. Maybe for realism, every team should be forced to train free throws once a month? And while we're at it, it's unrealistic that players who are professional can have hundreds of turnovers in their careers and zero assists, and have his coach never make him practice the simple art of passing the ball. Maybe for realism, every team should be forced to train passing for team once a month?

If you don't like a guy being unable to hit a jump shot you train jump shot. If you don't like a guy being unable to pass the ball, you train passing. If you don't like a guy being too tired to play well, you train stamina. Why is it that if you don't like a guy being able to shoot free throws, you instead want to make other training handle that?

I agree that if you want strong FT you have to train it. But I also agree with the OP that the current setup doesn't make sense. It shouldn't be that a there would be no residual effect from JS/JR to FT.

Think of it compared to JS. I could never train JS, but still the players JS would improve through JR, IS, and 1:1 training. In fact I've almost never trained JS and my trainees progress quite well in JS over time.

Should be that you get some small improvements in FT from JS training. If you want FT to be strong though then you have to train FT.

It's also unrealistic that a player can be a professional player from age 18 until age 30, miss all of his FTs and never have his coach attempt to make him practice FTs.

I get what u are saying in that this isnt real life, its a simulation, and there are lots of other unrealistic points to this game. And this is true. But if that were 100% true, then there wouldnt be a Suggestions Forum now would there?

So being the suggestions forum that what we discuss. So back to it.

If you don't like a guy being unable to hit a jump shot you train jump shot. If you don't like a guy being unable to pass the ball, you train passing. If you don't like a guy being too tired to play well, you train stamina. Why is it that if you don't like a guy being able to shoot free throws, you instead want to make other training handle that?

Actually this is not true. I don't think ive trained Jump shot for like.... well, a long time. I rely on 1n1 for guards and Outside shooting to train my JS. And I dont think ive ever trained SB, I rely on the ID and RB training to pump that up.
The point im making is that there are lots of examples in the training suite where there is substantial cross-skill training and for the most part, its all logical.

So if the idea that FT does not get trained in a direct cross-over manner is illogical. Am I right? Right...And thats all the OP is saying. And the suggestion is that this could be amended ever so slightly such that you don't end up with a guy who has Collosal JS and pitiful FT.

Actually this is not true. I don't think ive trained Jump shot for like.... well, a long time. I rely on 1n1 for guards and Outside shooting to train my JS. And I dont think ive ever trained SB, I rely on the ID and RB training to pump that up.
The point im making is that there are lots of examples in the training suite where there is substantial cross-skill training and for the most part, its all logical.

But nothing trains passing as a secondary. One on One trains so much more stuff than JS and almost as much JS as JS training that very few people use JS training and few of those actually understand training speeds. JR training is so slow that even among the people who haven't considered the skill totally worthless, it's rarely trained. Because almost everything trains handling and 1v1 trains so much more on so many more players, almost nobody trains handling. These are things that are actual problems with the training. People unwilling to take a week or two here or there to train FT is a much lower spot on the scale - it would make some sense for JS to train it, sure, but FT training is so fast, doesn't really get slowed down by age, trains everyone and is not minute dependent that there's no real compelling game design reason to increase it other ways as well. There are a lot more compelling issues with training that are far more worthy of being addressed than this, and certainly the only way training FT as a secondary to other skills would make real sense is in a serious rework of the entire training system.

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 5/25/2014 9:06:21 AM

Sure, everything you said about the other trainings is true, but its not clear why you are so passionately against this suggestion.

Perhaps because it would just add one more example of what hrudey described as being wrong with the training if implemented?
For training to really be meaningful, it has to require that people make choices between what they train. Right now there are so many of the training "choices" that no one makes because it's too easy to get a decent amount of training in one area by training something primarily aimed at something else. That's actually poor game design, and adding another example of it by having JS training provide some FT training is a bad direction to head in.
The reason players with high JS/JR and low FT exist in BuzzerBeater is become someone intentionally made that type of player. If they really wanted their player to have both high JS/JR and high FT, they easily could have chosen to do a more realistic training approach. Instead they decided that FT training really isn't worth doing and spent that time (and it's not like there aren't a couple of short weeks each season that are practically designed to be perfect for team FT training) training something else which they felt was more important. That's fine, but then they shouldn't keep coming tot the suggestion forum every few months and asking for the training to be changed because they made a choice about how they trained their player(s) and don't like the fact that their unrealistic training regimen resulted in a BB player who doesn't resemble a real world basketball player.

It's admittedly rare but it does happen every now and then.

Rojan Rondo - Career FG% .475 - Career FT% .621
Bruce Bowen - Career 3PT% .393 - Career FT% .575
Hollis Thompson - Career FG% .460 - Career 3PT% .401 - Career FT% .712
Kendall Marshall - Career 3PT% .396 - Career FT% .540

wow Rondo shoots crap from the line! Thats amazing!

BUT when you look at his shot chart, he shoots like, 95% of his shots from inside the ky close to the rim. Check out his shot chart from say the 11-12 season.

He shot 340 shots from inside the key close at the rim. The next highest number of shots from one of the zones, was 41 shots from the top of the key elbow.

and he only attempted 44 3 point shots the whole season.
ie: He shot 572 shots in the season.
60% were from inside the key right at the rim. ie: Layups/dunks.
only 7.5% of his shots were 3point shots.

So, yer, its actually documented that he has a poor jumpshot, hence he doesn't take them, (although i believe he has been working on it of late).

So whilst i like your field goal % comparisons. They are a little bit misguiding.

It does raise the question of perhaps FT is more related to the Jump Range skill, rather than Jump Shot? Anyone wish to discuss?

You're missing a couple of important points.

First off, it's not the same if you train any other skill (OD,PA,ID...) when player is 18 or 28 years old. Therefore, it's imperative to make best use of his young years and raise the player's secondary skills as soon as possible.

If BB is, as it's stated on the startpage, "most advanced basketball simulation", than it's only logical that a player who easily nails jumpshots is also a good FT shooter, who raises his free throw line percent as his shooting skills get better. For example, if Shaq trained his JS persistently, wouldn't his FT % also rose?

Managers like myself who regularly invest in draft and are fond of homegrown players (because nothing beats a green vertical arrow on Friday morning :) ) don't want to lose time on individual FT training, particularly if the trainee already gets 5-6 ups on JS.

If you pay close attention, you' ll see that I didn't mention ST, although it's also not cost effective to train this skill during the player's teen years. However, due to the nature of this skill, it's a largely independent aspect of a player's skill set and cannot be directly linked to another, as is the case with free throwing.

Sarcasm is ok, but I prefer good solid logic ;)

Managers like myself who regularly invest in draft and are fond of homegrown players (because nothing beats a green vertical arrow on Friday morning ) don't want to lose time on individual FT training, particularly if the trainee already gets 5-6 ups on JS.

That's certainly your decision, and one of the side effects is that you never train FTs and your team shoots FTs less effectively. Other people may like big men that pound the boards and play inside exclusively, and the side effect is their passing will always suck. That's choice and consequences. BB gives you the tools and if FT is important to you, you can train it. If passing is important to you, you train it. If stamina is important to you, you train it.

I understand the desire to not have to train FT. It sucked for me to carry players with 2 and 3 FT for the past 7-8 seasons while I was training my batch of trainees. I deliberately made the decision that it was something that was going to wait until my trainees were up to 26 and nearly capped, and so I've trained FT almost exclusively this season to get it up to speed. But I think it's an important skill and worth training, made the decision on when it made sense for me to train it and went with that. If it's important to you, you'll also need to decide how important and when it makes sense to train it. Every skill works like that, though, just that some also are trained by other trainings (some by too many, like handling, others by none at all, like passing).

If BB is, as it's stated on the startpage, "most advanced basketball simulation", than it's only logical that a player who easily nails jumpshots is also a good FT shooter, who raises his free throw line percent as his shooting skills get better. For example, if Shaq trained his JS persistently, wouldn't his FT % also rose?

Managers like myself who regularly invest in draft and are fond of homegrown players (because nothing beats a green vertical arrow on Friday morning ) don't want to lose time on individual FT training, particularly if the trainee already gets 5-6 ups on JS.

If you pay close attention, you' ll see that I didn't mention ST, although it's also not cost effective to train this skill during the player's teen years. However, due to the nature of this skill, it's a largely independent aspect of a player's skill set and cannot be directly linked to another, as is the case with free throwing.

Sarcasm is ok, but I prefer good solid logic ;)

Hrudey brought up nothing trains passing as a secondary yes?

Why do you insist on the jump shot to free throw..... When a bigger focus and more realistic is:
Why does rebounding not train passing a small degree? Big men don't typically grab a rebound and take the ball entirely coast to coast do they? And not all guards rebound like Jason Kidd or Rondo....

My point here is that you're asking for a perfect world solution, and such a thing cannot exist. There's not going to be a solution where everyone is happy. As it stands now... Your guy sucks at free throws... You are left with options:
Trade him for a guy that can hit ft
Train ft so he can hit them
Do nothing
Design your team to work around the ft flaw: ie: make them better rebounders so they rebound missed ft.

If none of these choices suit you, and you are adamant on a one-track solution... That is your choice but I question your managing skills.

Going back to real world and realistic since you brought it up... It's not realistic with how rare injuries happen here, or that a guy wins MVP and then his salary remains same instead of shooting up, etc. I could go on for days with unrealistic things.

Point being. It's not broken, so work with what you got


Last edited by ShadowSlam at 5/27/2014 4:12:08 PM