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Thanks for the (huge) answer ;)

I clarify :
- yes, it is Sumo wrestling
- yes, they don't face each other, as you say, cos' they are 40, and they play 15 games

- we are, for now, only 7-8 (if I don't make a mistake) so we can face each other
- yes, I have created (some years ago) tournaments with 15 or 20 players for sumo tournaments
- yes, you have probably guessed taht I like Sumo.
- I add that I'm a teacher in primary school, and made many tournaments with a sumo-model.

- I created a excel sheet which create a schedule in 5 minutes.
- If we are more than, say, 14, we can easily create TWO divisions. A upper one, and a lower one. The worst go down, the best goes up (or win the title).

It was just to clarify my idea, I don't absolutly push for this way of league ;)

While I might not be "absolutely pushing" for this kind of league system either, I'd like to hear more about it. :)
I'm somewhat familliar with sumo wrestling, but you're probably the authority here what becomes to it.

First and foremost, I'd be interested to know how using these 'sumo strength rating and/or matchmaking' would differ from creating fixtures for instance based on salary comparison (other than matchups for the end or regular season play would be determined by these aforementioned 'rankings' instead of team salaries), as most likely in both cases every team would face every team in the regular season schedule anyway?

Yes, you have a correct count - there are 8 of us currently. That count is made without taking into account possible/debatable Utopian team exclusions from the BBHG main league; that question still remains open but as I mentioned in my previous post, if my memory serves me/if I've understood correctly, most if not all of these 8 teams are willing to participate with their main team (I need to verify that in the near future by checking out the team pages whether or not they even have a Utopian team at the moment, and if they do, ask that from teams directly or at this forum).

Having two divisions is of course an interesting, and possibly a good option. I think it depends on many things (league system being one of them, and amount of participating teams would be another factor), so I'd like to see that option being kept in discussion. However, I don't know how much (if almost any?) additional work it'd create for the league commissioner? With 8-10 teams I guess it'd be too little amount to have 2 divisions (while having 2 groups at the same league level would simultaneously remain a possible option, but in that case it'd be important to share teams to groups fairly, which again could be done by comparing salaries). One of the downsides of such division based system is though, that all time statistics acquired (should someone be willing to calculate/extract them from box scores/update them at some point) by teams and players are not comparable with each other. (Unless someone would do such comparison based also on a division level, which I extremely highly doubt).

Again, as mentioned in my previous post, if we wouldn't be able to reach a conclusion on whether Utopian teams should be allowed in BBHG (my initial and current view is they shouldn't), it's not an impossible thought having two different BBHG leagues. If I'd be taking on the commissioner duties of BBHG league, I could then give advice/tips (based on experience gained from governing a league manually) to a manager who is willing to take on the BBUHG (BuzzerBeater Utopian Homegrown) league commissioner duties. If some other would take on BBHG duties, I'm sure this person would do the same as I think we have a good and friendly HG community here.

Not a direct reply to your message, but... as far as doing this commissioner work relating to BBHG league on our own, I only just realized there's a very questionable functionality: Buzzerbeater has decided to hide these "pick up games" box scores from others than user themselves. So by checking out my opposing team box score, I can't see the box score of that pick up game I played against them, I can only see it through my own match schedule page. Therefore, there is no way for me (if I'd be the league commissioner) to verify from the official BB website what's the result of each game in the (possibly established) BBHG league, and this is a very problematic point in my opinion.

I think we should proceed BB developers/owners/staff to get this changed (so that the box scores of "pick up games" would be visible to all). I'm not a fan of doing all this by sending box scores as screenshots, or as copy-pastes etc.. Plus, I do not use Discord, and do not plan to start using it because of BBHG league, nor am I willing to use email in any form to keep up with all the box scores and such. I think we need to be able to do this coordinating/commissioner work completely within Buzzerbeater (using Excel or something like that might be necessary for the recordkeeping, but that'd okay for me). I want to keep things as fair, easy and as transparent as possible, and right now I don't think this practice with BB pickup games box scores allow that.

Other, so much easier option of course also remains - realistic or not - that Buzzerbeater would make the BBHG official part of a free main game and take care on governing/commissioner work included in keeping the league running.

EDIT: It seems that one way to see the box score (a way, that I didn't for some reason come to think of earlier) is that one of the managers who has played that game visits the "pick up game" box score page, and copy-pastes the link to a forum or as a private message. Unless I have made a mistake, that link should be then be able to be opened by anyone. It will be very unhandy way, and it will crowd either the BBHG league forum (separate forum for the league, not this) or commissioners BB-inbox, of which both are undesirable options. However, we shall see if it's only workaround if we won't get BB to change their box score policy.
I suppose I'll use my teams pick up game from the last season as an example, so we get this verified if someone else than me or manager of Wake Forest Demon Deacons clicks this link: https://www.buzzerbeater.com/match/131030612/boxscore.aspx

Last edited by Wagner at 11/28/2024 11:34:52 AM

I don't think your reasons justify Utopian teams not being allowed to compete in HG competitions. I understand your (strong) view, however, a HG team is a HG team.

Your point is about Utopia, not the validation of HG teams.

If a manager chooses the challenge and joy of running a purely HG team, does it really matter to peeps if it is a main team or a Utopian team?

I would be interested to know.

Your suggestion of 2 divisions would be an easy solve.

Finally, I think it would be more challenging to create a Utopian HG team as it is far more competitive than some countries and training and promoting more difficult.

Anyway, unlike your self, I am not anti-Utopia and believe Utopia has its place. For some of us it simply enables us more playtime...

:-)

As a manager since Season 14, with several reincarnations, I like having the second team.

Last edited by MrJ at 11/28/2024 8:37:05 AM

I can see reasoning behind (at least some if not most) of your points... However, my previous points (especially about bankruptcy and closing of your main account permanently because of that) seem to have been at least partly surpassed, or then I interpreted it wrong.

As a manager since Season 12/13, WITHOUT reincarnations, there is a lot at stake when I do all this with my main team (which wouldn't be the case if I'd be playing like this with a Utopian team - that'll never happen, but in theoretical level), and once I was already very close to being bankrupt.

One of the points was, there is not so much at stake when you "play around" with Utopian team. So you can play with different attitude and in a way from a different starting point, should you decide to do so. For me for instance, I currently follow a playing philosophy (however, this would be true for many other HG teams too without following such an extreme philosophy in terms of keeping drafted players) which does NOT allow me to be relegated (unless I'm able to be promoted really quick, which is not likely as I think with current aging roster of mine it's way harder to get promoted from Finnish III.xx-division than to avoid relegation altogether), and all this already affects many things, such as which players can I train, on which positions, and on which weeks (to remain competitive enough to be able to avoid relegation).

Yes, you did get it right, that I am sort of anti-Utopia myself and do not wish to hide it. Maybe it affects my opinion to some degree, hard to say how dramatically though. I don't disagree that some think it has it's place in BB. But I think Utopian teams are "bought" teams, and such teams do not fall within the original spirit of Homegrown style - like I mentioned, Utopian teams are not even accepted on this main list of homegrown teams (established and updated by manager LOPO_, and found here: https://www.buzzerbeater.com/community/forum/read.aspx?thread=324689&m=1 . For me this remains the one and only way to determine "genuine" (for the lack of a perfect term) HG teams.
And once again, while Utopia is the way to go for some, I feel that that Utopia should be confined within it's "Utopian borders" in BB.

2 divisions surely would be one option unless consensus about this is reached. As of right now, I believe majority of us 8 would be willing to participate with our main teams. But you never know, should two different divisions be established, BBUHG could overtake us in the future in the amount of participating teams. But that'd be also fine, it'd mean that being/becoming homegrown in some way/method attracts more interest among managers.

But, as I just wrote to this forum, inclusion of Utopian teams or not is not the only question in the air: these pick up games box scores, that we'd be kind of forced to use to determine BBHG league winner, are NOT publicly viewable - they can only be viewed from teams' own match schedule page. That'd need to change, like I wrote (in more lengthy way) in my previous message.

I think you have made your point.

I will still slowly pivot to a HG team with my Utopian team for fun. I have only just come back to BB after a handful of seasons away and have quickly found myself back in Div II with a pretty poor roster...which suggests many things about BB (another discussion).

I might pivot my main team to a HG. We will see.

Either way, I will continue to watch these forum posts with interest and wish you and other HG teams the best.

+1

I think you have made your point.

I will still slowly pivot to a HG team with my Utopian team for fun. I have only just come back to BB after a handful of seasons away and have quickly found myself back in Div II with a pretty poor roster...which suggests many things about BB (another discussion).

I might pivot my main team to a HG. We will see.

Either way, I will continue to watch these forum posts with interest and wish you and other HG teams the best.

+1

Thank you for (possibly taking another look) and seeing my points, and for such a fast response - I'm often not as fast in replying times, but I sometimes try to compensate it with thorough answers (like it or not;).

I think you also made an excellent point by saying "for fun". I mean like I said for me it's more or less a serious affair as I can not afford to lose this main team (and have been on the edge before), still this sort of playing style brings to me (and perhaps to most of us) some amount of satisfaction and hopefully joy that isn't necessarily acquirable by following other "playing philosophies/styles".

So while certain amount of fear is present in my HG project (especially in the coming seasons with this aging roster, and not being able to get good draft picks due to not being able to be relegated intentionally), I also try to follow your example and take an advice from your post, and see this project in somewhat lighter and positive light.

I'm also glad to hear you'd be willing to keep your mind open for the possibility of converting your main team in the future... But no matter what you decide to do in terms of converting your team(s) to HG team(s), all the best to you too and please comment in addition to reading these posts. I've been glad to see we've been able to form quite a lot of conversation on this forum recently. :)

So...
about Sumo system © demars ( :D )
- For the very beginning, I think the salarial mass is the most objective way.
- Then, at the end of first season, we take the X best for next S2 League1, and the others for S2 League2
- 2 divs, if there are too few teams is not a good thing because we'll have to play against the same teams twice or more, and because we won't play against all teams.
- there are 14 weeks. If we are 12, we can play against all teams (11 games) + semi-finals + finals -> 13 weeks (or keeping the 2-3 weeks for tie-breakers).

- 1 div / 2 divs ?
It all depends of how many teams will play.
Personnaly, I think that we shoudn't put Utopia & Main teams in the same League. They should play apart.

So...
about Sumo system © demars ( :D )
- For the very beginning, I think the salarial mass is the most objective way.
- Then, at the end of first season, we take the X best for next S2 League1, and the others for S2 League2

So in this example/model - which has already been copyright protected I noticed - I guess at least for the first season would play on the same level, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to determine that? :D One thing that I still don't necessarily understand well enough is how this so called sumo system would differ from a regular league system in terms of relegation, playoffs structure, etc.? So far it all seems to me as a regular, all play all schedule...

One thing that has been mentioned before (and which wouldn't be problem if salaries would be used as a ranking method) is that if and when new teams join the league, it'd need to be established how they would be "rated" - they do not have such "rating" based on last season success (unlike all other teams). One option could be to make everyone joining later to start at the lowest possible level (division 1 in this example, if there are league and division - I have never cared for BBs' way to have "Top League" and then II-division; where's the first division? So that's why I always refer second highest league tier division 1, like in real life). However, that could make very uneven series (if some team decides to join when they are more or less at their prime, while others at the imaginary first division are at the lower skill level), and would take away any chances of winning for the low skill level teams which might (or might not?) affect their motivation. But again, success is something you determine yourself, it's not something that needs to be strictly understood/determined "the traditional way", for instance that "only proper success is winning championships", etc.

- 2 divs, if there are too few teams is not a good thing because we'll have to play against the same teams twice or more, and because we won't play against all teams.

Yes, probably not a good thing. Just a wild thought though: in BB leagues we play once against other group and twice against our own group teams - perhaps it could create an interesting place for first division teams for huge upsets, if one match would be played against each top league team. That would create a chance for so called Kinboshi, a gold star victory (known from sumo wrestling) if we want to keep on the Sumo theme here in the reply - precious victories, of which we could keep a record. I'm not suggesting that we do this, but this was just an intuitive stream of thought that I seemed to want to write down... :P Maybe my writings would make someone willing to share their own ideas, so I see no harm in sharing them.

- there are 14 weeks. If we are 12, we can play against all teams (11 games) + semi-finals + finals -> 13 weeks (or keeping the 2-3 weeks for tie-breakers).

This is one way to do it, but few questions came into mind. That example seems to suggest that only 4 teams would advance to playoffs, or did you just forgot to mention the quarter final stage? And I suppose you mentioned tie-breakers, suggesting playoffs being played in best of 3 format? It's a matter of taste, but I personally love the NCAA way of doing things regarding playoffs - it makes so called Cinderella stories (huge underdog going all the way, or proceeding far longer in the playoff tournament than initially expected) more probable when every game can be your last - you lose, you're out.

- 1 div / 2 divs ?
It all depends of how many teams will play.
Personnaly, I think that we shoudn't put Utopia & Main teams in the same League. They should play apart.

I'm absolutely on the same page with you on this one. Utopian teams should play in their own Utopian Home Grown-league, if there are enough interested Utopian homegrown teams to get such league started.

You're right, this SUMO SYSTEM does not differ from a classical league system except that :
- there is no divisions in the league.

I think that all will depend on HOW MANY teams will join. If we are 12 to play, there is no need of 2 divisions. If we are 24, we can think about 1 league with 2 divisions OR 2 leagues (upper league & lower league)

- I was thinking that 1/2 semi finals woulf be sufficient, but that was because we are, now, only 8 teams. But, why not quarter finals !
- I didn't suggest 2/3 games for advancing in 1/2 or finals. I was only thinking of 1/4, 1/2 and finals in ONE game. But, why not...

You're right, this SUMO SYSTEM does not differ from a classical league system except that :
- there is no divisions in the league.

I think that all will depend on HOW MANY teams will join. If we are 12 to play, there is no need of 2 divisions. If we are 24, we can think about 1 league with 2 divisions OR 2 leagues (upper league & lower league)

So again couple of questions so that I can verify I understand what you exactly meant with your writings. :)
So as far as I understood, if in SUMO system there wouldn't be division, in your first example we wouldn't be using SUMO system (as here would be 1 league with 2 divisions) but "normal/typical league structure instead where all play all?

And in the case of that another example of yours, say, 24 teams with upper AND lower league, not everyone would play all, but "stronger" teams would face mainly stronger teams, and "weaker" teams mainly weaker teams, and team schedule would be determined by some certain factor(s) (which again would possibly be challenging task to do fairly and transparently - or maybe not?).
And in that case, would teams season win-loss records considered equal to each other comparing BOTH lower and upper level league with each other, OR would teams being compared only to each other on the SAME (lower or upper) level league (and would play against each opponent on that level, which to me, would again make that a "regular league/division system" which adds to my confusion).

I guess it mixes my thoughts about this too, as in Sumo wrestling there ARE divisions in Sumo "league", 7 of them if my memory serves me.
Personally I don't actually like how in sumo wrestling worse wrestlers face easier opposition and best ones tougher opposition, and still every ones record in the top division is compared directly to each other. I know it leads to a positive outcome in terms of getting good records for these wrestlers not having top ranks (and even possibly allowing them to fight for the championship), but in my opinion with a cost as I find it somewhat unfair way to balance the playing field as it favors underdogs too much (even to my taste).

- I was thinking that 1/2 semi finals woulf be sufficient, but that was because we are, now, only 8 teams. But, why not quarter finals !

I see your point. Maybe I was thinking of the scenario that we get at least 1-4 more teams that would be willing to join, as then there would be more point of having 8 teams playoffs. There are also many other kind of league systems in addition to typical one, that could be utilized if there would be 8 of us and we'd like to include more than 4 teams after the "preliminary round/first part of the regular season", however, using SOME OF such league systems would leave part of the teams out of the competition/action before the typical regular season would've ended so opinions should be gathered on how players would think of a given league structure.

- I didn't suggest 2/3 games for advancing in 1/2 or finals. I was only thinking of 1/4, 1/2 and finals in ONE game. But, why not...

Personally I'd like to see all playoffs be decided in ONE game. That adds the excitement and gives underdogs better chances to be successful. In many instances, team skill and wage levels in BB are huge, and practically only chance for a huge underdog to win would be in single elimination playoff system, as the more often you play David vs. Goliath type of matchup the statistical probability for the underdog to win a longer series diminishes rapidly.

I'd also like to add something:
I would suggest that also bronze medal winner would be decided with a single elimination format (in one match).

Also I suggest that the weekly playing day would be Friday, as that's one of the only BB days that aren't already full of action. And as I hate Mondays, and my 74 years old player Vesa Rimpiläinen refuses to play on Sundays, that's the only logical option left... ;)