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take a moment to think what will happen the day 4 teams of the same "country" go down as for example 4 montenegro

only 1 is coming up .. that creates an odd configuration since you will need to demote 3 others by the face, or prevent 3 from promotion to div II...

How do you propose to solve demotion? It is not necessarily 2 Macedonian teams, 1 Montenegro and one Albanian team that demotes. Would it be a slow mix of countries?

The worst 4 teams are demoted, regardless of nationality.

Top team from each Div II is promoted. So 2 Macedonian, 1 Montenegro, 1 Albania.

The promotion from Divs III to Div II is then sorted out similarly to Utopia, or bot promotion. It shouldn't be too difficult.

take a moment to think what will happen the day 4 teams of the same "country" go down as for example 4 montenegro

only 1 is coming up .. that creates an odd configuration since you will need to demote 3 others by the face, or prevent 3 from promotion to div II...

check my previous post for answer.

My model is also better because this way, one nation will have 1 mandatory representative(Macedonia 2, since they are twice as large as us). If they just mix up everyone together, a nation may technically end up without a single representative in DIV I.

The worst 4 teams are demoted, regardless of nationality.

Top team from each Div II is promoted. So 2 Macedonian, 1 Montenegro, 1 Albania.

The promotion from Divs III to Div II is then sorted out similarly to Utopia, or bot promotion. It shouldn't be too difficult.

If four teams from the same country demote, and one replaces them, then that is three extra teams in D2. I'd love to be one of those three teams that avoids relegation by fighting all season, and then gets relegated, whereas teams from the other countries in the same position do not. Probably a bit more difficult to tell them its sorted out easily.

In addition to the relegation issues that other people have brought up, your proposal would still have a top league where managers from different countries would have to compete with each other. There have already been a couple of managers from these countries stating that this is unacceptable. How do you solve this?

I hope that is a serious question. You -- Ryan and Marin -- solve it by considering the matter from the point of view of what is best for BB. Managers who are speaking from their own personal biases are not speaking from that point of view, they are merely giving you their own personal bias. I can understand you would wish to hear from all managers (not just micro-managers, by the way) and a public display of such an interest may go a long way toward winning support for changes you might make. But I also know that "inmates running the asylum" is widely considered an inefficient way to run a program.

As a practical matter, a reshuffle that breaks up countries and puts teams into worlds based on a measure such as World Rank, and without regard to nationality, creates full worlds with fair competition and a balanced budget. Full worlds, fair competition and a balanced budet is a heckuva lot better result than any of the proposals I have seen to merely crush micro-nations together.

In addition to the relegation issues that other people have brought up, your proposal would still have a top league where managers from different countries would have to compete with each other. There have already been a couple of managers from these countries stating that this is unacceptable. How do you solve this?

Well, your original plan was to simply combine all three nations. So this would cut down that problem to 16 teams only. Other 100+ teams would still be playing with their countrymen.

Also, I believe it's likely that top teams care less about nationality issues, than more casual managers. I mean if you like the game, and you're active on forums, you're more likely to enjoy the challenge of playing in the stronger league. I'm taking myself as an example. I'm very active on this game, and have no intention of quitting, if this merger happens. Now if you lump all three countries together, I'm pretty sure a lot of more casual managers will quit.

As for promotion/relegation, do you think it would be a problem?

Div I relegation: as usual
Div II promotion: as usual
Div II relegation: as usual

Div III promotion: depends on the number of slots in Divs II, but aren't there systems for Utopian IV to III promotion, and also bot promotion who address the same issue already?

We welcome the opinion of everyone

Evidently some don't. Nowhere does it say the BBs are not interested in the opinions of those not in micro nations.

If you're not a manager from a micro-nation, please don't attempt to speak on the behalf of those that are.

They should have added that if you are from a micro nation please don't attempt to bully (an odd word for the small attacking the large but there you go) those from other nations into not speaking on this subject at all.

I think you're misrepresenting me more than a bit. I'm absolutely willing to be engaged with those who will discuss openly, and consider the *some* micro nation managers would like to retain some semblance of nation. In some fashion. What I'll be dismissive about is people stating (for the most part, from significantly larger nations) "You MUST do this (merge)". And just as you have the right to post, I have the right to form an opinion - and voice it.

Thus, I would argue the BBs were wrong to say they were most concerned with the opinions of those in micros, but as I already said, they didn't say macros, mediumos, belowaveragos and anyone else and their dog couldn't express their opinions. Just that it would carry less weight.

And I don't believe that anyone here has said that those you describe couldn't express said opinions.

I also think those people who are attempting to hold BB hostage by saying they'll quit if their beloved country is removed from BB should really get a grip. (I realise that's not you malice, I'm digressing)Its not like they're threatening to not let you play any more. And I've already said I wouldn't object if Trainerman's advice was followed and larger nations than micros (like mine) were also merged.

It is a reality tho'. I agree - attempting to ransom their involvement isn't exactly helping anyone... but I *DO* think that a lot of smaller-nation-users will bail if forced into this. It does appear the BBs are interested in trying to make this as positive as possible - I've never seen this level of discussion about a proposed change... but then I don't think there's ever been a change this large tabled before.

I'll say again, (because I can) that we should really be looking towards having similar sized leagues (Nations, Regions or whatever) so that we can all play in similar situations. In line with Trainerman's (and others') proposals.

I think once that happens, once we go the world Utopian route, then it's all becoming a bit too cookie cutter, too vanilla. I believe that the existence of many different world experiences is one of the things that makes BB... well... BB.