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I would agree that he has been the best over the past 5 years no doubt.

And even though everyone always says the Magic are terribly defensively without Howard I have yet to see actual data to support it, individually Nelson, Redick, and Co aren't that bad.

His athleticism is off the charts, only big man I can think of as more athletic would be good old Wilt.

The best big men defenders I can think of off the top of my head would be Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Bill Russell. And he compare decently to them, but I wouldn't necessarily say he's better than any of them.

It's extremely difficult to compare great posts to great guards(on offense or defense) so I won't bother.

Kobe winning all defensive team last season was a joke. His team did much better on defense with him off the court. In fact, out of the top 50 players last season in adjusted plus minus, Kobe was the second biggest defensive negative on the list (Durant was the only player worse and Jamal Crawford was almost as bad). See: http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?year=2010-2011

There are a number of players who are obviously better defenders at SG: Iguadala, Wade, Sefolosha, Afflalo all come to mind. I have talked to a wide range of knowledgeable basketball people who virtually all agree with me on this subject.

And yes, I absolutely know more about player evaluation than the sheep-like media who obsess over star power and care far more about apeing public opinion than actually watching games with a critical eye.

I probably don't watch as much basketball as you and I definitely don't know as much statistically as you, but as a Lakers fan I think it's a joke that you put Pau as number 6. Yes, I think he should get more shots on offense, but recently (which is what you're talking about according to your first post) he's been inconsistent and I think ever since Bynum came back he's been better offensively and more at ease getting less shots. As a second/third option he fits in great. He shouldn't get more shots than Kobe though (though I don't think anybody would disagree with you when you say kobe needs to take less shots). Having Bynum as a first-option instead of Kobe is a whole different story though, and I think that question will have more validity as time goes on and Bynum proves to be consistent.

I'm also not so sure how Pau does on the defensive end. I don't have such a great eye for defense, but Pau seems to struggle on pick and rolls and switch situations. His foot-work just becomes so awkward imo. Heck (I may wrong about this) but I think Phil Jackson even took Gasol out in last year's playoffs for crunch time in the 4th quarter because his defense was really lacking (though, his offensive performance could have also explained it). As a one-on-one defender I think he's great though.

I think he's more of a #15 player.

Also, regarding Kobe's defense, I thought it was pretty bad (relatively) last season but this season (maybe his knee feels better?) I think his one-on-one defense has really improved. I haven't been tracking him coming down the court like you have though. Honestly, I think on night's where he isn't "feeling it" he should just save most of his energy for defense, since I think he can really excel there and let Bynum/Gasol control the offense.

Also, I think Anthony might be a victim of your "defensive reputation" idea because the times I've watched him he seemed like he was at least average and probably better than average (again, I'm not great at determining how great a player is defensively).

Too bad the all defense teams are selected by the coaches, bummer.

Last edited by Eminence Front at 1/7/2012 11:59:37 PM

Too bad the all defense teams are selected by the coaches, bummer.

Oops, you of course are right. I still stand by my assesment however. I think the +/- numbers are hard to explain away, and I think coaches also go by reputation more than they should. Here is a graph of Kobe's regularized offensive and defenive plus minus rating over time: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/players/186.png (I think this site is more accurate than basketballvalue.com).

One thing I firmly believe is that defensive evaluation is much harder than most people think, and even the experts can be wrong. I am probably not an expert, but I do watch a ton of basketball and have done a ton of stats research. I think that the best stats research is currently more accurate than coaches opinions, and that if you polled general managers instead of coaches you would find a lot more people with opinions similar to mine.

I probably don't watch as much basketball as you and I definitely don't know as much statistically as you, but as a Lakers fan I think it's a joke that you put Pau as number 6. Yes, I think he should get more shots on offense, but recently (which is what you're talking about according to your first post) he's been inconsistent and I think ever since Bynum came back he's been better offensively and more at ease getting less shots. As a second/third option he fits in great. He shouldn't get more shots than Kobe though (though I don't think anybody would disagree with you when you say kobe needs to take less shots). Having Bynum as a first-option instead of Kobe is a whole different story though, and I think that question will have more validity as time goes on and Bynum proves to be consistent.

I'm also not so sure how Pau does on the defensive end. I don't have such a great eye for defense, but Pau seems to struggle on pick and rolls and switch situations. His foot-work just becomes so awkward imo. Heck (I may wrong about this) but I think Phil Jackson even took Gasol out in last year's playoffs for crunch time in the 4th quarter because his defense was really lacking (though, his offensive performance could have also explained it). As a one-on-one defender I think he's great though.

I think he's more of a #15 player.

Too be perfectly honest I'm not super confident of my placement of Pau. Here is a breakdown into groups that I am more confident in:

Tier 1:
Dwight Howard
Lebron James

Tier 2:
Dwayne Wade
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant

Tier 3:
Pau Gasol
Derrick Rose
Kevin Love
Dirk Nowitzki
Steve Nash
LeMarcus Aldridge
Luol Deng

I am quite confident that everyone from tier 1 is better than tier 2, and I am also confident that everyone from tier 2 is better than tier 3. But I am not very confident that Howard is better than James or that Gasol is better than Aldridge.

Edit: I would place Kobe at the top of tier 4, and I would place him in tier 2 or 3 if he had better shot selection (like he has at certain points in the past). Some people might be thinking "wtf" at Deng but his defense is absurdly good.

Last edited by w_alloy at 1/8/2012 1:07:49 AM

move KD into tier 1 and take deng out, his defense is not good enough to get him into tier 3, you have to be one of the best, like top 5 in defense in the league to get him up there and then it will be better than you have now

Let me remind evryone of tis about kobe.
I'm not sure if u r talkin this season, or past but currently kobe has a torn hand ligament in his hand. An operated ankle, and knee. Must i mention he is 33 at that. Yet here are his current stats as i type is, 30.3 pts, 5.9 rebs, and 5.7 ast. with 2 back to back 40 pt games. Compared to ppl yall say are better than him like lebron and durant, it's really no comparison. If your watching b ball right now, there is no comparison to who's the best in the game today. i don't know were defense came in at cuz kobe is the second best defensive 2 guard in the leauge( behind d-wade). Kobe is just great, scoring, passing, rebounds, just a great all aroung game. He's the 5th best player ever in my opinion.

Yeah, I'd probably move Kobe this season up to the #2 or #3 spot right now based on the way he's playing so far. Seems like he's really found rhythm this season in this offense this month. Only thing that concerns me is the minutes he's been playing lately. I'd still say Lebron is playing better than him though.

evryone iz entitled 2 thier own opinion