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Your Top 10 best NBA players

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From: #24CMAN

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152411.426 in reply to 152411.425
Date: 12/13/2011 10:06:34 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
2727
Chris paul is da 2nd best pg in the nba. did u c what he did against la??? all his speculation around trades? he isn't better than rose, but better than everyone you mentioned.

This Post:
00
152411.427 in reply to 152411.426
Date: 12/14/2011 1:36:57 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
5151
First off, I like both players. Here go the numbers. Paul played in 80 while Rose played in 81... so both can give you a full season. Paul went 36 minutes a game, Rose went 37.4. So both will eat a ton of minutes and keep your reserve PG off the court and on the pine until garbage time.

For shooting, Paul shot 46.3% from the field, 38.8% from 3PT and 87.8% from FT for the Season.
Rose shot 44.5% from the field, 33.2% from 3PT and 85.8% from the FT.

So during the Regular Season Paul shot better in all aspects (+1.8% FG, 6.6% 3PT, 2.0% FT).

In the Play offs Paul shot 54.5%, 47.4% and 79.6%.
Play offs Rose shot, 39.6%, 24.8% and 82.8%.

In the Play Offs Rose was better at the line, though below his Season Average (as was Paul) while Paul improve both FG and 3PT shotting where as Rose lowered his. Paul Play Off vs. Paul Season showed improvement, adding 8.2%, 8.6% and -6.2%.

Rose versus Rose shows he dropped 4.9%, 8.4% and 3.0%.

Paul vs. Rose Play Offs gives Paul a shotting advantage, + 14.4%, 21.6% and -3.2%.

While in the Season they were fairly close as far as shooting. While 6.6% from 3PT is a decent margin, 1.8 and 2.0 really aren't that big. In the Play Offs however, Paul shot drastically better from the Field and 3PT, while keeping the FTs withing 4%.

Paul seems to be the better SHOOTER. But shooting isn't the only thing a Modern PG does. Modern PGs SCORE.

Paul put up 15.9 in the Season and 22.0 in the Play Offs. Rose put up 25.0 and 27.1.

Rose scored 9.1 PPG more than Paul in Season and 5.1 in the Play Offs. Paul did show more improvement (+6.1 vs. +2.1) but it's hard to knock Rose for not adding 6 extra points over his 25 PPG.

So far we have Paul being the better Shooter and Rose being the better Scorer. But PG is about more than just Offense. Let's look at Defense. 2.4 in Season and 1.8 Steals per Game in Play offs for Paul, 1.0 and 1.4 for Rose.

In Season Paul nabs 1.4 more Steals, and 0.4 more in Play Offs, than Rose. Rose did increase his Steal output in the play offs, but much like Rose's scoring, it's hard to expect Paul to keep taking 2.4 Steals a game in the Play Offs.

But Modern PG's have to help the bigs by boarding! Okay, 4.1 and 6.7 (Season/PO) for Paul. 4.1/4.3 for Rose. For the Season they grabbed the same average of boards, but in the Play Offs Paul grabbed 2.4 more Rebounds a Game than Rose. I will give Paul a very slight Rebound Advantage, due to Play Offs. Very sliight.

But, but, but... PGs PASS! Yes, and I saved the best for last. Point Guards set up and execute the offense. Now, in Modern Basketball this is also done by scoring, instead of driving and passing to open players. Still, the Assist will ALWAYS be a staple of PG Play.

Paul, 9.8 and 11.5. Rose, 7.7 and 7.7. All are good numbers, no doubt. Still, Paul IMPROVED his Assists going into the Play Offs, edging Rose out by 3.8 APG in the Play Offs (and 1.9 in the Season.) Passer, Paul.

Let's take Scoring AND Assists. 15.9 PPG season + 9.8 Assist X 2 (19.6) = 35.5 points a game due directly to Paul.
25.0 PPG season + 7.7 Aissts X 2 (15.4) = 40.4 points a game due directly to Rose. Rose was 4.9 better in season.
Play Offs, 22.0 + 11.5 Assists X 2 (23) = 45.0 for Paul, with Rose getting 27.1 + 7.7 X 2 (15.4) = 42.5 for Rose. 2.5 Advantage for Paul in Play Offs.

Who is better? Like I said, I like them both. Paul can shoot, sets up team mates more and steals better, while edging Rebounds in Play Offs (and Productivity). Rose scores quiet a bit more and was more productive during the Season. Both are great. Hope these numbers help!

This Post:
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152411.428 in reply to 152411.427
Date: 12/14/2011 6:54:15 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
246246
Dude, you need to discover the world of advanced metrics. Would make your life much easier... PER goes to Paul by .2. Defensive win shares actually goes to Rose...it's not just about steals. Offensive win shares actually goes to Paul by 1.1. DRose is better in assists per 100 possesions as well. Overall win shares goes to Chris Paul however. It goes back and forth. I give the PG nod to CP3, however I would build my team around Rose as he is younger and doesn't have a sketchy knee. The funny thing is that Westbrook isn't in the argument...better PER than Rose and a lot of similar numbers. However looking closely at advanced metrics Westbrook falls behind because of the fact he has KD on his team...it lessens his win shares for sure...

From: Murl

This Post:
00
152411.429 in reply to 152411.421
Date: 12/14/2011 9:29:37 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
4949
Clippers got CP3.Mavs got Lamar and V.C. The NBA is going to be insane!

This Post:
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152411.430 in reply to 152411.428
Date: 12/14/2011 9:32:36 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
5151
I know they have all these new stats they are meant to show how good a player is, I just think the tried and true are just that... tried and true.

I'm 32, I still love looking at Assist to Turnover Ratio and Shot Percentage. :D I bet the older guys (older than me guys, that is) don't even like 3PT%.

Still, your Advanced Metrics show pretty much the same thing I said, both players are very good and both players have certain advantages over the other.

Here is what I want to know. Paul has a substantial amount of Assists more than Rose, yet Rose gets more Assists every 100 Possessions... does Paul really get that many more possessions in a game than Rose? Both are the PG, so the primary ball handler, and will possess the ball on what, 95% of the plays while they are in... maybe even more. Are the Hornets that more up pace than the Bulls?

What I do love about Rose the most is this... he is only the 3rd Highest Paid Bull. 3rd. That's cost effective value. Just over $6 Million this upcoming season (not sure if the shortened season will change the Salary, since they won't be playing 82). Deng and Noah both make more than him (both are very good) in that $12-16 Million Range.

Chris Paul... I'll have to look at it. Didn't he put up a few Triple Doubles last season? If I had to choose, I'd go with the one that brings more to the team since talking PG. After all, you got SG, SF, some C... other positions are MEANT to score, so Scoring is what I would weigh least when talking Scoring, Assists, Percentages, Turnovers, Steals. I would rate it over Rebounding and Blocks.

How do you judge? For me it has to be Assists/Turnovers, Shooting Percentages, Steals, Scoring, Rebounding, Blocks. Although I might switch Scoring for Stealing in the case of a Rose, where he's so explosive scoring.

This Post:
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152411.431 in reply to 152411.430
Date: 12/14/2011 10:57:40 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
246246
I love the metrics, because they do a lot of combining and give you a more clear picture. If you just look at steals you would say Chris Paul is a better defender, but if you go to the advanced metrics they take into consideration a wide variety of things to determine just how much of an impact someone makes on defense. I think steals is a very overrated stat. Allen Iverson was not a great overall defender, but he sure he get a couple steals every game. That's why when you look deeper it shows that Drose is probably a better defender, which makes sense because he is more athletic and has better measurables to matchup with other point guards.

I think PER, win shares, WAR, etc... are pure gold. Yes you can take an assist/TO ratio and gain value, but you can't always gauge it because of the players around you. TO% gives you a look at the true turnover rate without needing to look at the ability of other players around you to finish. Now when a guy like Steve Nash can get a ton of assists without a great supporting cast, now that's PG at it's finest and you don't have to look at the advanced metrics...however, to see his overall impact you do.

Now don't get me wrong, you can look at regular stats and they can be useful, I just don't think they do a good job at telling the entire story. In a time when so much is media driven and awards are won or lost based upon how many ESPN highlights you have, metrics are the way to go. Just ask Lebron James how he made the all defensive team...it's called the chase down block and it looks good until you get in the playoffs and get torched by Jason Terry. I'm not saying Lebron is not a capable defender, but ESPN drives his status to higher than it really is on that side of the ball.

I'm a baseball guy and to truly tell if a guy is good on defense you can't just look at errors and fielding percentage. I love the defensive handbook people come out with because it shows that guys like Derek Jeter are frauds defensively (no I'm not discrediting his offense or his leadership). Reading into things you will see that Jeter has terrible range as he has posted 2 of the all time worst single season put outs per nine innings numbers. On those teams his starting pitchers were only middle of the pack in strike outs so he had just as many opportunities as other players. Sure he could have had bad luck one year and be on this list, but to be consistently low on this stat is an indicator of range. That's also why he had to rely on a jump throw...his arm wasn't strong enough and he couldn't circle around a ball in the hole. Same reason why you don't see him dive to the hole and throw people out from his knees. The fact that he has a gold glove is because people try to only use the media and regular stats...not the in depth look at the true defensive worth. As a disclaimer I will say that Jeter deserves to be in the hall of fame even if he never won a gold glove so that you don't just think I'm hating on him.

Anyway, that's just a couple examples I could think of....but it is the reason why I don't just look at the normal stats.

As for who I would take...I would probably take Rose. Better defense, shooting will improve because of the type of mentality he has to put in the work, and he is younger/healthier. If I had scoring pieces in place and it was for only 1 year, I would take the more seasoned, pure PG in Paul.

This Post:
00
152411.432 in reply to 152411.431
Date: 12/18/2011 2:59:08 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
3030
I really like Rondo as a PG. Yeah, he has a tough time shooting but he makes everyone around him so much better, which is what I believe the PG position is all about. He's also an underrated rebounder and he's a terrific athlete. I know this statement will offend a lot of people, but I believe he is the best pure PG in the NBA.

This Post:
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152411.433 in reply to 152411.432
Date: 12/18/2011 7:06:32 PM
Cruesli
DBA Pro A
Overall Posts Rated:
533533
Second Team:
The Milk
A year ago there was a discussion going on here about Rondo or Westbrook being the better PG. Pretty much everyone except for 1 person agreed with you that Rondo was the big talent and obviously better PG.

The guy defending Westbrook did it so well that he unconsciously encouraged me to start following the NBA. I think now, a year later maybe more than 50% will agree that Westbrook is the better PG in comparison with Rondo. Personally I prefer Westbrook as well. The proposed Ronde+Green for Westbrook+Perkins deal would have been a bad trade for the thunder and I'm glad they didn't even consider it.

Crunchy! If you eat fast enough
This Post:
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152411.434 in reply to 152411.432
Date: 12/18/2011 10:20:18 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
246246
Rondo does not make those around him better as much as those around him make him better. I think he is the most overrated player in the game, personally.

This Post:
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152411.435 in reply to 152411.434
Date: 12/18/2011 10:29:08 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
3030
But... He's my boy.

This Post:
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152411.436 in reply to 152411.435
Date: 12/18/2011 10:36:46 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
246246
Then you can freely disagree. I take no offense to other opinions!

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