BuzzerBeater Forums

Then your point about Pippen and the rest of the "role players" being overrated or nothing special is terrible....1 good player and a bunch of role players does not get you into the playoffs.

Pippen averaged 19pts/8reb/6ast/2steals/1block for the first championship in 1992 so I'm not sure what you are talking about "bench"? Are you saying he came off the bench for the all star game? If you are using that as a knock, then that's ridiculous. Especially since starters are VOTED in and in subsequent years both of those players were on the starting roster of the all star game. Started in 1993 and beyond....in 1992 Pippen backed up Larry Bird. Man Pippen must be 2nd rate.

Horace Grant also made the all start team once, as well. That means for that year he was one of the best 12 players in the East....which the bulls had 3 all stars that year. Jordan had it rough, eh? Grant was also on the All-NBA defensive team 4 times while with the bulls.

Cartright was towards the end of his career with those Bulls teams, but after Ewing and Shaq in the Eastern conference, who would you have rather had at the center position during those 3 years? Daugherty maybe? He's not a stud like you said, but he was better than the other bigs you mentioned for the bulls anyway.

You ask how many all stars did the first bulls champion have and it was 2. How many all stars have the recent champions had in the NBA lately? 1 or 2. Just like it always has been. Maybe the celtics got 3 their year? I can't remember. The Bulls had 3 all stars in 1994-1995 and that was the year without Jordan. Guess who the other all-star was? That's right, BJ Armstrong. So Pip, Horace, and BJ that season. I'm positive that is what you call a great supporting cast. Period. Name a team that had more star power than the early 90's Bulls? Maybe the Rodman Bulls with Kukoc there as well but Houston didn't, San Antonio didn't, LA had Shaq AND Kobe, but Kobe fared the exact same as Scottie after Shaq left.

Here's the Jordan-less Bulls record with Scottie leading them: 55-27 and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. They won a playoff series! How can you not say that supporting cast was GREAT?

Please stop that.

I disagreed with you when started posting because I like Kobe and I like his game more than I like Dirk's game. However, you laid out enough statistics and combined them with a reasonable discussion of perspective and focused on last season. Now I'm forced to concede that you have a strong, convincing argument.

And I know this is the iternet and it is not supposed to happen but you actually changed my mind. *gasp* That doesn't really happen, does it?

If it was just about getting you to not like Kobe, I could have handled that. He told the Hornets to trade him when they told him they were drafting him because he claimed that Carolina BBQ is inferior to what is served in LA.

As a player, kobe bryant lead his team more effectively than dirk nowinski. Kobe is the leader of his team, he operates the offense it runs through him, and he does it well. Dirk is the leader, but the impact is not the same. in my opinion, jason kidd runs the offense really. if dirk lead his team, he would get the ball regularly and either shoot or pass every time. kobe always touches the ball and makes a play or creates his own shot. which i must say kobe is the best shot maker in the nba. U keep brining up stats, but what you fail to realize stats aren't everything. yes it shows effecitivness( srry 4 spellin) and what you can do. just think bre kobe, compared to dirk. just look at thier game last season, look at thier clutch moments. There is no way dirk is now, last season, next year or even ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, dirk will never be better than kobe bryant. Not last year. U speak intelligently, and persuasively. u made many change thier mind, but i'm undettered. U noe more bout b-ball than i suspected and i respect u a little. But regardless, i will not change. nothing u show or say can change me. Everyone has a off year i agree, and kobe had a off playoffs, as we all noticed. I'll agree dirk was better than kobe in the playoffs( the only time you really heard his name all year unless your a maveric fan). So we'll keep goin at this n many more arguments so good luck tryn.

As a player, kobe bryant lead his team more effectively than dirk nowinski. Kobe is the leader of his team, he operates the offense it runs through him, and he does it well. Dirk is the leader, but the impact is not the same. in my opinion, jason kidd runs the offense really. if dirk lead his team, he would get the ball regularly and either shoot or pass every time. kobe always touches the ball and makes a play or creates his own shot. which i must say kobe is the best shot maker in the nba. U keep brining up stats, but what you fail to realize stats aren't everything. yes it shows effecitivness( srry 4 spellin) and what you can do. just think bre kobe, compared to dirk. just look at thier game last season, look at thier clutch moments. There is no way dirk is now, last season, next year or even ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, dirk will never be better than kobe bryant. Not last year. U speak intelligently, and persuasively. u made many change thier mind, but i'm undettered. U noe more bout b-ball than i suspected and i respect u a little. But regardless, i will not change. nothing u show or say can change me. Everyone has a off year i agree, and kobe had a off playoffs, as we all noticed. I'll agree dirk was better than kobe in the playoffs( the only time you really heard his name all year unless your a maveric fan). So we'll keep goin at this n many more arguments so good luck tryn.

The Lakers Offense does flow through Kobe, you are correct. The Mavericks offense works best when it flows through Dirk. Dirk is, on the Depth Chart, a PF. So there will be times that the ball will go to the other side of the court (Opposite Wing, supporting C) and a shot opportunity opens up before they can get it to Dirk. And that is fine, when the opportunity is there, take it... don't force.

Kobe is a Guard, much easier to run through a Guard. Obviously Kobe will get more touches.

Now, Dirk gets more chances than most Bigs because he doesn't exactly play like a 4 plays and he will spot up on the perimeter quiet a bit.

Kobe is amazing at creating a shot, both driving and pulling up. Dirk is every bit as good at creating the Jumper, moreso due to his Height and Quick Release than Kobe and his ability to make a move and stop then pop. Where Kobe has a much greater advantage is going to the basket, where his ability to drive and then his acrobatics allow him to perform near miricles.

Kobe will also back down smaller Guards... when Dirk backs some one down it's usually an actual PF/C. Even at 7'0" like Dirk is, those Defenders are actual Post Defenders with legit height... so when Dirk backs down it's a Post Player, when Kobe backs down (like MJ did) it's a Guard. One Kobe usually has the Height Advantage on, and one that doesn't know much about defending the post. Still, whether the Post Player against Dirk or the Guard on Kobe... who REALLY knows how to guard either of these guys 10 feet or closer to the basket?

Look, Kobe is amazing. Kobe over his career has been better than Dirk. Where I differ on your point here is that you say Kobe lead his team more effectively than Dirk. Dirk is the Leading Scorer for his team, just as Kobe is for his. If they don't score, usually they don't win. Now Kobe gets locked in, becomes a ball hog. This is sad, because Kobe is actually a very good passer... he just doesn't apply that much. That's a trick MJ learned early, and he made his team mates better by using it. Kobe never quiet got to that level with giving up the rock like MJ did. Dirk on the other hand, even as a PF, will work the rock. Dirk will also set Picks. Maybe this is because they use Dirk on Pick and Rolls and Pick and Screens, but Dirk sets picks off ball too. Kobe never sets a screen.

The Offense doesn't work through Kobe, it is absorbed like light into a black hole by Kobe. This leads to some amazing things like Kobe scoring 70 and such... but also leads to the Lakers losing games that they shouldn't lose because Kobe was hogging and not hot.

On the other hand, Dirk shot 28% in a FINALS Game, and still contributed with Assists, Rebounds, Blocks and Steals... along with the game winning Dunk. So even when Dirk is off, which isn't often, he still helps his team. When Kobe doesn't score a ton AND shoot well, it's a rough night for the Lakers.

I just don't want you thinking I'm giving Kobe 'hate'. He's a Top 50 all time for sure, one of the Top 10 Greatest in my Opinion. But last year, he was not a Top 3 and he was not better than Dirk. This year, especially in a shorter season... who knows? He could be back on top all over again.

While you convinced me that last season Dirk surpassed Kobe on this mythical top 10 list we're all trying to put together, you have not convinced me that if I should choose Dirk over Kobe in their primes. One thing you're neglecting to address is that "intangible" list of qualities. Up until last season, Dirk was also saddled with that term "choker" that you have hung on Lebron several times in your argument. It wasn't until last season that Dirk showed he was capable of putting the team on his back and leading them to a championship.

What Kobe has that Dirk does not is that closing out killer instinct that we attribute to guys who are leaders on their team. Kobe has "it" just like MJ and Magic did before him.

So again, your argument about last season (Have I said that once or twice?) has me putting Dirk on the list ahead of Kobe. However, for a career body of work, I still think Kobe goes over Dirk and could very well get back on top of Dirk this season coming up.

I completely agree. Not trying to say Dirk is better than Kobe over the course of the Career.

Now, Dirk did start 'closing' this season. And when not 'closing' he was still aiding the team by getting that Rebound, Steal, Block or Assist. He didn't always finish with a Shot, but he was a lot more involved in the Finish than before.

IF, and this is a big if, Kobe stays at Last Seasons level of play or degrades AND Dirk continues to perform AND Finish, then Dirk may catch him. But Kobe has such a huge lead overall that this would take alot of things happening (more Dirk over Kobe Heads Up, more Dirk Rings to narrow the gap there, and continued Production in the Statistics like Last Season over Kobe).

Do I think Dirk can continue to rise and Kobe will stay stagnant or decline more? No. It could happen, but I really doubt it.

Both teams are making moves trying to help these guys. Dallas took a step back losing Chandler, a pivotal piece, but have since brought in Odom and Carter. Odom is more 'finesse' than Chandler, but basicially they produce the same, they just get there differently. Carter can still score and rebound and will improve the Dallas Fast Break. For LA, we see what they are trying. Dwight Howard blocking shots, rebounding and running out on the Fast Break to finish. Thing is, these are all roles Odom filled, and while Howard will be better at each of these (like Odom will be better at stepping out and shooting over a defender than Howard) they simply upgraded instead of adding another weapon. Howard AND Odom would have been beasty with Kobe. Still, Howard will be an Upgrade.

So seeing how these moves affect Chemistry and how the Stars can get along with the new players to the team will mean a lot.

On the one hand Odom, like Chandler, means Dirk doesn't have to rebound as much. That's good, as he can focus more on Scoring, Stealing and Blocking. Problem is, Rebounding helps Dirk look like a better all around player... so losing those extra 1-2 boards a game hurts his stat line.

Same for Kobe... Howard is going to have the Mismatch some games and be capable of putting up 40 points. It's doubtful that Kobe puts up big scoring in those games (more like 15 than 25). So his Scoring Average may go down. The Average Fan will think he's declining. They may cite higher Assists (if it's Kobe giving up the ball to Howard) but still say 5 Points isn't worth 2 assists for Kobe. What they SHOULD be looking at is if having Howard (and using Howard) gets Kobe a better SHOT PERCENTAGE. If it does, then this is a huge win for the Team, and for Kobe.

Right now Dirk scores like 2-4 points less than Kobe, but shoots like .050-.125 better (depending on FG, 3PT, FT, etc.) so this makes Dirk look much more efficient. While Kobe scores MORE, Dirk scores BETTER. If Kobe gets that Shot Percentage up, then Dirk loses that Advantage and loses ground on the Dirk/Kobe Comparison.

I do think, year to year, Dirk will have some better seasons than Kobe moving forward, like last season. I don't think he'll do that every year.

Overall, Kobe is better. Won't deny it. When they retire, Kobe will PROBABLY be better. Last Season, Dirk was better.

The worst thing about Lebron wasn't pulling up short on Jumpers (a way of choking) it was stupid decision and not using his team mates. That's the worst kind of choking, in my opinion. Wade's only choke was allowing James to try to run the show late in the game, instead of saying "I've been here and won, let me guide us through. I need you, but this is MY Team." I doubt Wade makes that mistake again, and I have Wade rated higher than Lebron.

This is why the best player of all time is J.R. Smith and it's not debatable.

I believe we should just agree to disagree because, no matter what i post, or u we will not cave in. We just don't agree. i personally belived kobe had a better season than dirk. i explained my reasoning and u did yours. so let's discuss someting else. this will go on forever.


who is best pg in the leauge last season. i say derrick rose, i hope you do too.

The difference is that his reasoning made sense....although recent posts are long and i get through about 2 paragraphs.

Kobe in no way, form, shape, or fashion outplayed Dirk this season. Period. I guess you think Kobe was better than Durant too?

of course!!!!!!!!!!!!