BuzzerBeater Forums

Please stop that.

I disagreed with you when started posting because I like Kobe and I like his game more than I like Dirk's game. However, you laid out enough statistics and combined them with a reasonable discussion of perspective and focused on last season. Now I'm forced to concede that you have a strong, convincing argument.

And I know this is the iternet and it is not supposed to happen but you actually changed my mind. *gasp* That doesn't really happen, does it?

Thank you. It does happen. :D

If you ask me, the Fan, then Charles Barkley is the best player of all time. Obviously, from an objective approach, this doesn't stand true. I love how he ran the floor, played both sides of the court, and dominated much taller players. Listed at 6'6" (same height as Jordan) he was a Top 10 Rebounder for his era, even a dominant force on the boards after he hurt his back and went to Houston. As a PF he had great range and could still get to the basket (sweet back down, I swear you could throw the ball in to Chuck and he could back you down the length of the entire court) and he even had rules changed because of him (5 Second Back Down happened because of Sir Charles). Still, all of this does not really make him the best every. That's just the fan in me loving it.

Just seeing Kobe go down the lane and slam it home even though everyone collapsed to help out is amazing. Watching him launch a 3 for the win is thrilling. We remember Success more than failure, unless that failure comes on the biggest stage. So every time we see Kobe hit a Game Winning Three from dang near off the court EMOTION sets in, and we forget the fact that he really is only an average (if that) 3 Point Shooter.

Watching Kobe is awesome, even in an off season last last year. He's a remarkable player, and I would stop the car if I saw just 1 play by him on the Play Ground... just stop the car and get out and watch. He's that type of player.

Seeing him spin to the lane and bring the pain is more ENTERTAINING than watching than watching Dirk hit 9-10 FTs on his way to 25 points. Dirk's game isn't 'sexy'. Kobe's game is 'sexy'.

That's what you fell for. The 'sexy' game. Looks really nice. And some times the 'sexy' game is also the BEST game. Jordan was 'sexy' on the court every season, and obviously many of those seasons it was also the best game. But flash isn't always the best. John Stockton was one of the top 5 PGs every year he was in the NBA, every single year. Not in any one of those many (12?) seasons was John Stockton ever 'sexy' on the court. Still, you'd be hard pressed to find a better PG in any given season.

Shaq was both over his career. Early on Shaq was 'sexy' on the court, dominating entire teams. You couldn't stop him from Dunking on everyone. And wow the shots he would block. Rebounds aren't really sexy, but he got all of those along with the dunks and blocks. Later in his career he adapted, like Jordan did later in his career (jumper over drive, etc) by backing you down and then fading or hooking instead of taking you all the way to the Basket. He wasn't 25 anymore, he had to change because physically he lost some of the quickness and explosiveness of his youth. Still, he was Dominant. Different style, same result.

You can love some one's game, some one's team, some one's style. That's being a fan, and we all are fans. But like another poster said, they love the GAME more than their Team. Without the Game, you wouldn't have the Team or the Players. So we have to be honest about the Game, because it is the most important thing.

I love Barkley, but the fact is while he was so much better than so many realize... he really wasn't better than Michael Jordan. And that's fine, because there aren't many (and some would say there aren't any) better than MJ.

Thank you for actually reading my posts and seeing my points, whether you agree with them or not.

And don't worry about disagreeing with me at the start. I've had my mind changed by solid arguments before. Usually when this happens I realize I had use my 'eyes' to judge, instead of researching and finding the truth.

They have the best PLAYERS. Hard to find a better trio of talent. They do not have a better TEAM (Dallas proved this). Now, if they can get the Chemistry down and Lebron can stop choking and making bad decisions, then the TEAM might actually gel and become the best TEAM.

Until that happens, they won't be the best team. They will win off of pure talent, but the best Teams will still defeat them.

Even last season, the Heat had more TALENT than the Mavs. Bosh ran into a tough defender in Chandler, but Bosh is overall BETTER than Chandler. Sure, Kidd and Terry are solid, but these are old players no longer in the prime. They used intelligence and experience to out play Lebron and Wade.

No way anyone on the Mavs could match up against Wade one on one. No way anyone outside of Chandler (long and quick) could hang with Lebron, who is used to playing smaller defenders. And if you put Tyson on Lebron, who is manning up Bosh? Dirk is a good HELP defender, but not a solid One on One Defender. Bosh and Lebron both own him 1-on-1.

On the flip side, Wade is one of the top Defensive Guards in the game. He could have shut down either Kidd or Terry had he locked in to one. How can you expect Kidd or Terry to get solid shots off over Lebron and his height/vert? Neither have the explosiveness (like the young J. J. Berrera) to go right at Lebron and create. So they SHOULD have been shut down. Yet Kidd played very well and Terry shot Lights Out. Dirk is a given, no one was stopping Dirk but Dirk. But Chandler couldn't own Bosh offensively (and he didn't)

So you got 3 guys that the Mavs shouldn't be able to stop. You got 1 guy the Heat shouldn't be able to stop. Yet the players for the Mavs did all the little things needed, including stepping up and challenging those Stars instead of given in and just passing the ball away, to win.

Heat: Better Talent. Mavs: Better Team.

Again, that was Last Season. Now, they Heat have a season of playing together and feeling each other out, this SHOULD help them play better together. Also the Mavs have lost a key piece (Chandler) to the Knicks. But the Mavs aren't the only team out there, and of all the 'Play Off Teams' only the Lakers have as bad of a Chemistry as the Heat.

This is sad, since both teams have had great Coaches (Riley, Jackson) that forged Chemistry and got more out of the talent they had than others could. Of the 2, the Heat are the easier fix... due to having more firepower over all. The Lakers are trying to change that by going after 2 more big stars for Kobe to team with... but that will likely take more than one season for it to be effective, they may well look like last year's Heat, enough Talent to get them all the way, but not enough TEAM to win it.

The Heat already faced that 'growing pain', the Lakers would just be starting them.

And in the end, all the Chemistry in the world doesn't matter if you don't have some kind of talent. Not every team will find a Chandler, Kidd, Terry or Berrera to surround their Stars.

Don't get me wrong, the Heat and Lakers will win. Probably both be in the Play Offs again. Kobe is to good not to get 40 wins and the Heat have to much Talent to lose enough in the regular season not to make it. It's in that Championship game where I worry about these teams, where likely they would fall to teams with lesser records.

I didn't read half of either rant. In fact, I don't really care to be honest. However, I did read that you called Michael's Bull's teams lacking in talent. You forgot a key piece in Bill Cartright and are selling that roster wayyyy short. I guess you don't remember the fact that The bulls made the playoffs WITHOUT Jordan when he retired. That says something for Scottie and the role players...not to mention that had guys like Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, etc... throughout the years. I am not a Lebron fan nor am I a Bulls or Cavaliers fan, but you saw what happened when Lebron left Cleveland. They became the worst team in the league. I would have to say since better basketball was played in the 1990's Eastern conference that the Bulls other than Jordan were very good players...ESPECIALLY Pippen.

Bill Cartwright was another Role Player. When was Bill every Top 10 or even Top 15 in Blocked Shots and Rebounds? He was tough and gritty, and I noted that about the Bulls Centers.

Rodman was the 2nd Set, which I said was Star Power at it's finest... but the first set of Rings was excellent team work by great role players supporting 1 (or 2 if you feel Scottie was all that) Super Star.

How many All Stars did the first Bulls Champions have? Pippen was on the bench for the 1st one, though he did come up and become an All-Star.

Again, I love guys like Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, John Paxson... but these guys are what they are, really good ROLE Players. Not Stars.

Then your point about Pippen and the rest of the "role players" being overrated or nothing special is terrible....1 good player and a bunch of role players does not get you into the playoffs.

Pippen averaged 19pts/8reb/6ast/2steals/1block for the first championship in 1992 so I'm not sure what you are talking about "bench"? Are you saying he came off the bench for the all star game? If you are using that as a knock, then that's ridiculous. Especially since starters are VOTED in and in subsequent years both of those players were on the starting roster of the all star game. Started in 1993 and beyond....in 1992 Pippen backed up Larry Bird. Man Pippen must be 2nd rate.

Horace Grant also made the all start team once, as well. That means for that year he was one of the best 12 players in the East....which the bulls had 3 all stars that year. Jordan had it rough, eh? Grant was also on the All-NBA defensive team 4 times while with the bulls.

Cartright was towards the end of his career with those Bulls teams, but after Ewing and Shaq in the Eastern conference, who would you have rather had at the center position during those 3 years? Daugherty maybe? He's not a stud like you said, but he was better than the other bigs you mentioned for the bulls anyway.

You ask how many all stars did the first bulls champion have and it was 2. How many all stars have the recent champions had in the NBA lately? 1 or 2. Just like it always has been. Maybe the celtics got 3 their year? I can't remember. The Bulls had 3 all stars in 1994-1995 and that was the year without Jordan. Guess who the other all-star was? That's right, BJ Armstrong. So Pip, Horace, and BJ that season. I'm positive that is what you call a great supporting cast. Period. Name a team that had more star power than the early 90's Bulls? Maybe the Rodman Bulls with Kukoc there as well but Houston didn't, San Antonio didn't, LA had Shaq AND Kobe, but Kobe fared the exact same as Scottie after Shaq left.

Here's the Jordan-less Bulls record with Scottie leading them: 55-27 and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. They won a playoff series! How can you not say that supporting cast was GREAT?

Please stop that.

I disagreed with you when started posting because I like Kobe and I like his game more than I like Dirk's game. However, you laid out enough statistics and combined them with a reasonable discussion of perspective and focused on last season. Now I'm forced to concede that you have a strong, convincing argument.

And I know this is the iternet and it is not supposed to happen but you actually changed my mind. *gasp* That doesn't really happen, does it?

If it was just about getting you to not like Kobe, I could have handled that. He told the Hornets to trade him when they told him they were drafting him because he claimed that Carolina BBQ is inferior to what is served in LA.

As a player, kobe bryant lead his team more effectively than dirk nowinski. Kobe is the leader of his team, he operates the offense it runs through him, and he does it well. Dirk is the leader, but the impact is not the same. in my opinion, jason kidd runs the offense really. if dirk lead his team, he would get the ball regularly and either shoot or pass every time. kobe always touches the ball and makes a play or creates his own shot. which i must say kobe is the best shot maker in the nba. U keep brining up stats, but what you fail to realize stats aren't everything. yes it shows effecitivness( srry 4 spellin) and what you can do. just think bre kobe, compared to dirk. just look at thier game last season, look at thier clutch moments. There is no way dirk is now, last season, next year or even ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, dirk will never be better than kobe bryant. Not last year. U speak intelligently, and persuasively. u made many change thier mind, but i'm undettered. U noe more bout b-ball than i suspected and i respect u a little. But regardless, i will not change. nothing u show or say can change me. Everyone has a off year i agree, and kobe had a off playoffs, as we all noticed. I'll agree dirk was better than kobe in the playoffs( the only time you really heard his name all year unless your a maveric fan). So we'll keep goin at this n many more arguments so good luck tryn.

As a player, kobe bryant lead his team more effectively than dirk nowinski. Kobe is the leader of his team, he operates the offense it runs through him, and he does it well. Dirk is the leader, but the impact is not the same. in my opinion, jason kidd runs the offense really. if dirk lead his team, he would get the ball regularly and either shoot or pass every time. kobe always touches the ball and makes a play or creates his own shot. which i must say kobe is the best shot maker in the nba. U keep brining up stats, but what you fail to realize stats aren't everything. yes it shows effecitivness( srry 4 spellin) and what you can do. just think bre kobe, compared to dirk. just look at thier game last season, look at thier clutch moments. There is no way dirk is now, last season, next year or even ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, dirk will never be better than kobe bryant. Not last year. U speak intelligently, and persuasively. u made many change thier mind, but i'm undettered. U noe more bout b-ball than i suspected and i respect u a little. But regardless, i will not change. nothing u show or say can change me. Everyone has a off year i agree, and kobe had a off playoffs, as we all noticed. I'll agree dirk was better than kobe in the playoffs( the only time you really heard his name all year unless your a maveric fan). So we'll keep goin at this n many more arguments so good luck tryn.

The Lakers Offense does flow through Kobe, you are correct. The Mavericks offense works best when it flows through Dirk. Dirk is, on the Depth Chart, a PF. So there will be times that the ball will go to the other side of the court (Opposite Wing, supporting C) and a shot opportunity opens up before they can get it to Dirk. And that is fine, when the opportunity is there, take it... don't force.

Kobe is a Guard, much easier to run through a Guard. Obviously Kobe will get more touches.

Now, Dirk gets more chances than most Bigs because he doesn't exactly play like a 4 plays and he will spot up on the perimeter quiet a bit.

Kobe is amazing at creating a shot, both driving and pulling up. Dirk is every bit as good at creating the Jumper, moreso due to his Height and Quick Release than Kobe and his ability to make a move and stop then pop. Where Kobe has a much greater advantage is going to the basket, where his ability to drive and then his acrobatics allow him to perform near miricles.

Kobe will also back down smaller Guards... when Dirk backs some one down it's usually an actual PF/C. Even at 7'0" like Dirk is, those Defenders are actual Post Defenders with legit height... so when Dirk backs down it's a Post Player, when Kobe backs down (like MJ did) it's a Guard. One Kobe usually has the Height Advantage on, and one that doesn't know much about defending the post. Still, whether the Post Player against Dirk or the Guard on Kobe... who REALLY knows how to guard either of these guys 10 feet or closer to the basket?

Look, Kobe is amazing. Kobe over his career has been better than Dirk. Where I differ on your point here is that you say Kobe lead his team more effectively than Dirk. Dirk is the Leading Scorer for his team, just as Kobe is for his. If they don't score, usually they don't win. Now Kobe gets locked in, becomes a ball hog. This is sad, because Kobe is actually a very good passer... he just doesn't apply that much. That's a trick MJ learned early, and he made his team mates better by using it. Kobe never quiet got to that level with giving up the rock like MJ did. Dirk on the other hand, even as a PF, will work the rock. Dirk will also set Picks. Maybe this is because they use Dirk on Pick and Rolls and Pick and Screens, but Dirk sets picks off ball too. Kobe never sets a screen.

The Offense doesn't work through Kobe, it is absorbed like light into a black hole by Kobe. This leads to some amazing things like Kobe scoring 70 and such... but also leads to the Lakers losing games that they shouldn't lose because Kobe was hogging and not hot.

On the other hand, Dirk shot 28% in a FINALS Game, and still contributed with Assists, Rebounds, Blocks and Steals... along with the game winning Dunk. So even when Dirk is off, which isn't often, he still helps his team. When Kobe doesn't score a ton AND shoot well, it's a rough night for the Lakers.

I just don't want you thinking I'm giving Kobe 'hate'. He's a Top 50 all time for sure, one of the Top 10 Greatest in my Opinion. But last year, he was not a Top 3 and he was not better than Dirk. This year, especially in a shorter season... who knows? He could be back on top all over again.

While you convinced me that last season Dirk surpassed Kobe on this mythical top 10 list we're all trying to put together, you have not convinced me that if I should choose Dirk over Kobe in their primes. One thing you're neglecting to address is that "intangible" list of qualities. Up until last season, Dirk was also saddled with that term "choker" that you have hung on Lebron several times in your argument. It wasn't until last season that Dirk showed he was capable of putting the team on his back and leading them to a championship.

What Kobe has that Dirk does not is that closing out killer instinct that we attribute to guys who are leaders on their team. Kobe has "it" just like MJ and Magic did before him.

So again, your argument about last season (Have I said that once or twice?) has me putting Dirk on the list ahead of Kobe. However, for a career body of work, I still think Kobe goes over Dirk and could very well get back on top of Dirk this season coming up.