BuzzerBeater Forums

I find it interesting that so many people still have Kobe at the top of these lists. It seems to me that Kobe's defense has gotten much worse this past year (perhaps even before that)...It might just be that I'm a big Kobe fan and watch him a lot more than other players, but I just remember too many times where I've been disappointed by his on-ball defense. I think D-Wade has probably taken over as best SG, even just on the offensive end of the floor.

I'm really interested in seeing how Kobe does this season though. One of the NBA broadcasters was talking about how Kobe's offensive would get much more opportunities now that he isn't in the triangle offense and forced to pass as often...

Also, to anybody that claims Lebron isn't even in the top 3, I think you are factoring in his lack of maintaining his level of play in big games way too much. For one, most of the players on your top 10's haven't even reached the big game moments where Lebron fell through. Number 2, just look at his offensive stats again. I'd have trouble naming 5 players in the league that can contribute that much on the offensive end. And that isn't even factoring in the fact that he is the most versatile defender in the game.

I'd say Jordan won with a team that was pretty weak on overall talent. Specialty players like B. J. Armstrong, Steve Kerr, John Paxson helped him a ton, no doubt. These were guys that could hit an open 3, and when Jordan drove... defenders were going to collapse and leave a shooter open.

Bill Winnington, Luc Longley and the numerous Centers they went through were, while good at banging bodies and playing tough, considered the weakest C's in the Play Offs. Guys like Ewing, Robinson and Hakeem the Dream were dominant centers, and guys like Bill Lambier played the same style the Bulls C's would play... except he played it much better.

The first 3 Championships the Bulls didn't have a Top Ten PG, PF or C. I'll grant SF, even though I feel Scottie Pippen was hugely over-rated. So basically you had a SG in Jordan, and a SF in Pippen. Not very talented as a Team, but with the most driven and dominant closer (and later to become most driven and dominant player) they were able to Win... a lot.

True, when they added Dennis Rodman to the mix for the next set of Trophies they became one of the most stacked teams in the NBA. True Star Power at it's finest. And it worked because Rodman didn't need to be passed the ball. If he wanted to score, he grabbed an Offensive Rebound. He was more focused on Defense, Rebounding, and shutting down the tough Big Man Match Up than anything. Rodman never looked for his own shot or to create unless needed (clock ticking down, etc). Replace Rodman with a PG that likes to shoot a lot and while you still may have a Championship Team it wouldn't have been as good as what they made it.

The 2nd 3-Peat your argument is very valid... the Bulls had the best Team hands down, as far as talent across the board. The first set of Championships... that was solid Role Players riding the ability of MJ to take over a game. Very similar to Cleveland with Lebron... except Jordan got Rings (which is why the comparisons of Lebron to Jordan coming in were so unfair, not everyone can take the limited Talent like the Bulls had and get that ring, nor should it be expected).

Fact is, Kobe was in a Decline last season. It happens. Might come out this season and destroy, moving back to 1-2-3. LAST SEASON, however, Dirk was better all around than Kobe. I've shown the numbers to prove it, the Head to Head that proves it, and add on the Ring to cement the argument.

All you've added is "stop arguing it's pointless you can't prove 2 me or n e one kobe isn't better than dirk!!!" which I find funny because after you tell me to stop arguing you tell me to "keep tryn".

Look, over their Careers Kobe still has the lead on Dirk. I admit that openly. Dirk is closing the gap, but it's not THAT close. If Kobe is down another 2-3 Seasons and Dirk stays at this level or improves, he COULD catch Kobe in the Long Run. Doubtful, but possible. Absolutely, over their Careers, Kobe is better.

We weren't talking Careers. We were discussing who right now (at the time this thread started) was better. While it is arguable that some were better than Dirk last season (some very good and well thought out arguments have been presented) Kobe wasn't one of them.

Last Season, Dirk was better than Kobe.

It happens. There were seasons where, as great as Jordan was, he wasn't the BEST player that year. Injury, off year, etc. He was always great, but not the greatest every year. And that would be practically impossible to pull off, so why expect that?

As great as Dirk is, he wasn't the biggest reason his team won. They've had Dirk. I think Tyson Chandler was the #1 Reason they became so tough... how Dirk and Dallas does with him heading to the Knicks will show a lot about how great Dirk can be. Don't get me wrong, Kidd and Terry were great in the Play Offs, but Chandler drove that Defense. His 1 and 2 are getting older... if Dirk can over come this then he'll close in on true grea

Last edited by KillerKell at 12/9/2011 6:26:39 PM

Please stop that.

I disagreed with you when started posting because I like Kobe and I like his game more than I like Dirk's game. However, you laid out enough statistics and combined them with a reasonable discussion of perspective and focused on last season. Now I'm forced to concede that you have a strong, convincing argument.

And I know this is the iternet and it is not supposed to happen but you actually changed my mind. *gasp* That doesn't really happen, does it?

Thank you. It does happen. :D

If you ask me, the Fan, then Charles Barkley is the best player of all time. Obviously, from an objective approach, this doesn't stand true. I love how he ran the floor, played both sides of the court, and dominated much taller players. Listed at 6'6" (same height as Jordan) he was a Top 10 Rebounder for his era, even a dominant force on the boards after he hurt his back and went to Houston. As a PF he had great range and could still get to the basket (sweet back down, I swear you could throw the ball in to Chuck and he could back you down the length of the entire court) and he even had rules changed because of him (5 Second Back Down happened because of Sir Charles). Still, all of this does not really make him the best every. That's just the fan in me loving it.

Just seeing Kobe go down the lane and slam it home even though everyone collapsed to help out is amazing. Watching him launch a 3 for the win is thrilling. We remember Success more than failure, unless that failure comes on the biggest stage. So every time we see Kobe hit a Game Winning Three from dang near off the court EMOTION sets in, and we forget the fact that he really is only an average (if that) 3 Point Shooter.

Watching Kobe is awesome, even in an off season last last year. He's a remarkable player, and I would stop the car if I saw just 1 play by him on the Play Ground... just stop the car and get out and watch. He's that type of player.

Seeing him spin to the lane and bring the pain is more ENTERTAINING than watching than watching Dirk hit 9-10 FTs on his way to 25 points. Dirk's game isn't 'sexy'. Kobe's game is 'sexy'.

That's what you fell for. The 'sexy' game. Looks really nice. And some times the 'sexy' game is also the BEST game. Jordan was 'sexy' on the court every season, and obviously many of those seasons it was also the best game. But flash isn't always the best. John Stockton was one of the top 5 PGs every year he was in the NBA, every single year. Not in any one of those many (12?) seasons was John Stockton ever 'sexy' on the court. Still, you'd be hard pressed to find a better PG in any given season.

Shaq was both over his career. Early on Shaq was 'sexy' on the court, dominating entire teams. You couldn't stop him from Dunking on everyone. And wow the shots he would block. Rebounds aren't really sexy, but he got all of those along with the dunks and blocks. Later in his career he adapted, like Jordan did later in his career (jumper over drive, etc) by backing you down and then fading or hooking instead of taking you all the way to the Basket. He wasn't 25 anymore, he had to change because physically he lost some of the quickness and explosiveness of his youth. Still, he was Dominant. Different style, same result.

You can love some one's game, some one's team, some one's style. That's being a fan, and we all are fans. But like another poster said, they love the GAME more than their Team. Without the Game, you wouldn't have the Team or the Players. So we have to be honest about the Game, because it is the most important thing.

I love Barkley, but the fact is while he was so much better than so many realize... he really wasn't better than Michael Jordan. And that's fine, because there aren't many (and some would say there aren't any) better than MJ.

Thank you for actually reading my posts and seeing my points, whether you agree with them or not.

And don't worry about disagreeing with me at the start. I've had my mind changed by solid arguments before. Usually when this happens I realize I had use my 'eyes' to judge, instead of researching and finding the truth.

They have the best PLAYERS. Hard to find a better trio of talent. They do not have a better TEAM (Dallas proved this). Now, if they can get the Chemistry down and Lebron can stop choking and making bad decisions, then the TEAM might actually gel and become the best TEAM.

Until that happens, they won't be the best team. They will win off of pure talent, but the best Teams will still defeat them.

Even last season, the Heat had more TALENT than the Mavs. Bosh ran into a tough defender in Chandler, but Bosh is overall BETTER than Chandler. Sure, Kidd and Terry are solid, but these are old players no longer in the prime. They used intelligence and experience to out play Lebron and Wade.

No way anyone on the Mavs could match up against Wade one on one. No way anyone outside of Chandler (long and quick) could hang with Lebron, who is used to playing smaller defenders. And if you put Tyson on Lebron, who is manning up Bosh? Dirk is a good HELP defender, but not a solid One on One Defender. Bosh and Lebron both own him 1-on-1.

On the flip side, Wade is one of the top Defensive Guards in the game. He could have shut down either Kidd or Terry had he locked in to one. How can you expect Kidd or Terry to get solid shots off over Lebron and his height/vert? Neither have the explosiveness (like the young J. J. Berrera) to go right at Lebron and create. So they SHOULD have been shut down. Yet Kidd played very well and Terry shot Lights Out. Dirk is a given, no one was stopping Dirk but Dirk. But Chandler couldn't own Bosh offensively (and he didn't)

So you got 3 guys that the Mavs shouldn't be able to stop. You got 1 guy the Heat shouldn't be able to stop. Yet the players for the Mavs did all the little things needed, including stepping up and challenging those Stars instead of given in and just passing the ball away, to win.

Heat: Better Talent. Mavs: Better Team.

Again, that was Last Season. Now, they Heat have a season of playing together and feeling each other out, this SHOULD help them play better together. Also the Mavs have lost a key piece (Chandler) to the Knicks. But the Mavs aren't the only team out there, and of all the 'Play Off Teams' only the Lakers have as bad of a Chemistry as the Heat.

This is sad, since both teams have had great Coaches (Riley, Jackson) that forged Chemistry and got more out of the talent they had than others could. Of the 2, the Heat are the easier fix... due to having more firepower over all. The Lakers are trying to change that by going after 2 more big stars for Kobe to team with... but that will likely take more than one season for it to be effective, they may well look like last year's Heat, enough Talent to get them all the way, but not enough TEAM to win it.

The Heat already faced that 'growing pain', the Lakers would just be starting them.

And in the end, all the Chemistry in the world doesn't matter if you don't have some kind of talent. Not every team will find a Chandler, Kidd, Terry or Berrera to surround their Stars.

Don't get me wrong, the Heat and Lakers will win. Probably both be in the Play Offs again. Kobe is to good not to get 40 wins and the Heat have to much Talent to lose enough in the regular season not to make it. It's in that Championship game where I worry about these teams, where likely they would fall to teams with lesser records.

I didn't read half of either rant. In fact, I don't really care to be honest. However, I did read that you called Michael's Bull's teams lacking in talent. You forgot a key piece in Bill Cartright and are selling that roster wayyyy short. I guess you don't remember the fact that The bulls made the playoffs WITHOUT Jordan when he retired. That says something for Scottie and the role players...not to mention that had guys like Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, etc... throughout the years. I am not a Lebron fan nor am I a Bulls or Cavaliers fan, but you saw what happened when Lebron left Cleveland. They became the worst team in the league. I would have to say since better basketball was played in the 1990's Eastern conference that the Bulls other than Jordan were very good players...ESPECIALLY Pippen.

Bill Cartwright was another Role Player. When was Bill every Top 10 or even Top 15 in Blocked Shots and Rebounds? He was tough and gritty, and I noted that about the Bulls Centers.

Rodman was the 2nd Set, which I said was Star Power at it's finest... but the first set of Rings was excellent team work by great role players supporting 1 (or 2 if you feel Scottie was all that) Super Star.

How many All Stars did the first Bulls Champions have? Pippen was on the bench for the 1st one, though he did come up and become an All-Star.

Again, I love guys like Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, John Paxson... but these guys are what they are, really good ROLE Players. Not Stars.

Then your point about Pippen and the rest of the "role players" being overrated or nothing special is terrible....1 good player and a bunch of role players does not get you into the playoffs.

Pippen averaged 19pts/8reb/6ast/2steals/1block for the first championship in 1992 so I'm not sure what you are talking about "bench"? Are you saying he came off the bench for the all star game? If you are using that as a knock, then that's ridiculous. Especially since starters are VOTED in and in subsequent years both of those players were on the starting roster of the all star game. Started in 1993 and beyond....in 1992 Pippen backed up Larry Bird. Man Pippen must be 2nd rate.

Horace Grant also made the all start team once, as well. That means for that year he was one of the best 12 players in the East....which the bulls had 3 all stars that year. Jordan had it rough, eh? Grant was also on the All-NBA defensive team 4 times while with the bulls.

Cartright was towards the end of his career with those Bulls teams, but after Ewing and Shaq in the Eastern conference, who would you have rather had at the center position during those 3 years? Daugherty maybe? He's not a stud like you said, but he was better than the other bigs you mentioned for the bulls anyway.

You ask how many all stars did the first bulls champion have and it was 2. How many all stars have the recent champions had in the NBA lately? 1 or 2. Just like it always has been. Maybe the celtics got 3 their year? I can't remember. The Bulls had 3 all stars in 1994-1995 and that was the year without Jordan. Guess who the other all-star was? That's right, BJ Armstrong. So Pip, Horace, and BJ that season. I'm positive that is what you call a great supporting cast. Period. Name a team that had more star power than the early 90's Bulls? Maybe the Rodman Bulls with Kukoc there as well but Houston didn't, San Antonio didn't, LA had Shaq AND Kobe, but Kobe fared the exact same as Scottie after Shaq left.

Here's the Jordan-less Bulls record with Scottie leading them: 55-27 and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. They won a playoff series! How can you not say that supporting cast was GREAT?

Please stop that.

I disagreed with you when started posting because I like Kobe and I like his game more than I like Dirk's game. However, you laid out enough statistics and combined them with a reasonable discussion of perspective and focused on last season. Now I'm forced to concede that you have a strong, convincing argument.

And I know this is the iternet and it is not supposed to happen but you actually changed my mind. *gasp* That doesn't really happen, does it?

If it was just about getting you to not like Kobe, I could have handled that. He told the Hornets to trade him when they told him they were drafting him because he claimed that Carolina BBQ is inferior to what is served in LA.

As a player, kobe bryant lead his team more effectively than dirk nowinski. Kobe is the leader of his team, he operates the offense it runs through him, and he does it well. Dirk is the leader, but the impact is not the same. in my opinion, jason kidd runs the offense really. if dirk lead his team, he would get the ball regularly and either shoot or pass every time. kobe always touches the ball and makes a play or creates his own shot. which i must say kobe is the best shot maker in the nba. U keep brining up stats, but what you fail to realize stats aren't everything. yes it shows effecitivness( srry 4 spellin) and what you can do. just think bre kobe, compared to dirk. just look at thier game last season, look at thier clutch moments. There is no way dirk is now, last season, next year or even ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, dirk will never be better than kobe bryant. Not last year. U speak intelligently, and persuasively. u made many change thier mind, but i'm undettered. U noe more bout b-ball than i suspected and i respect u a little. But regardless, i will not change. nothing u show or say can change me. Everyone has a off year i agree, and kobe had a off playoffs, as we all noticed. I'll agree dirk was better than kobe in the playoffs( the only time you really heard his name all year unless your a maveric fan). So we'll keep goin at this n many more arguments so good luck tryn.

As a player, kobe bryant lead his team more effectively than dirk nowinski. Kobe is the leader of his team, he operates the offense it runs through him, and he does it well. Dirk is the leader, but the impact is not the same. in my opinion, jason kidd runs the offense really. if dirk lead his team, he would get the ball regularly and either shoot or pass every time. kobe always touches the ball and makes a play or creates his own shot. which i must say kobe is the best shot maker in the nba. U keep brining up stats, but what you fail to realize stats aren't everything. yes it shows effecitivness( srry 4 spellin) and what you can do. just think bre kobe, compared to dirk. just look at thier game last season, look at thier clutch moments. There is no way dirk is now, last season, next year or even ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, dirk will never be better than kobe bryant. Not last year. U speak intelligently, and persuasively. u made many change thier mind, but i'm undettered. U noe more bout b-ball than i suspected and i respect u a little. But regardless, i will not change. nothing u show or say can change me. Everyone has a off year i agree, and kobe had a off playoffs, as we all noticed. I'll agree dirk was better than kobe in the playoffs( the only time you really heard his name all year unless your a maveric fan). So we'll keep goin at this n many more arguments so good luck tryn.