BuzzerBeater Forums

Hello Gccsteel!
I didn't remember participation to private leagues is restricted to 1 league at a time. In that sense, playing homegrown league as PU league actually appears to be less restricting, and allowing Supporter package owners to compete in both simultaneously: homegrown league and then on some other private league. Playing homegrown league as a private league (of which idea I'm totally not a fan of) would then restrict Supporters to play only that league.

Anyway, as far as ladder rankings go, you were supposedly discussing about the league system (regular season and playoffs) in your message, unless I understood it all wrong? I have actually already given a proposition for a league system, that MrJ very well condensed on 14th of January: https://www.buzzerbeater.com/community/forum/read.aspx?thread=324689&m=248

So if this aforementioned league system is fine for all, we could use that, with possibly some fine tuning, such as making sure we get these 2 games/week weeks out of the way as soon as possible and most importantly play only 1 playoff match per week (in order to minimize managers not organizing/playing PU matches in time.

We do have to decide some aspects though, and I'm working on my propositions currently.
Especially MrJ's contribution helps me a lot in it, and I will keep his favoring of simplicity and less punitive preferences in mind when planning a structure in terms of rules and penalties (that I'd suggest). However, like I said, thank you MrJ and please send message here in forum or BB mail if you have any propositions to "basic BB rules" in mind that you'd prefer to see implemented. (For instance, you mentioned that if a team gets disqualified, all the results would be changed to 0-50 loss, into which I presented another view for certain reasons; now that I think of your proposition, there are also many strong points in it that proposition and I really like the idea of not getting any wins to the all time stats from such season etc., yet at the same time if I have to be the one that changes/corrects everything manually, I'm not sure how much additional work it would create - handling everything manually doesn't sound very tempting task in the first place, but I get that someone needs to do it in order for this to work).

Same goes for other managers too, you may send me BB mail and we can discuss about pros and cons of certain aspects without overcrowding this forum thread (which I seem to be pretty good at sometimes;).

One of the questions would be though, that as for the first season of BBHG should we stick with 14 teams or also add 1-2 teams in addition that I think already have announced their interest (unless I'm mistaken here?) in addition to 14 team roster that we already have, what do you guys think?

Given that we choose this "one league, 12 playoff spots available" league system that I mentioned before (link added to this post), I suppose it would at least still keep things interesting (in terms of at least theoretically being able to clinch a playoff spot) for the most teams at least almost until the end of the regular season.

In the case there would be for instance 16 of us, we would have to have more of those 2 games/week weeks though, and it would be slightly more work for regular manager (and a bit more for the commissioner) and make significance of 1 league game slightly less important (13 vs. 15 regular season matches), but as long as someone else would take care of creating a random schedule for the regular season, I guess I'd be open for both options. (MrJ, and if needed demars, already has got us covered here if they are willing to offer their help on this one at least).
The more the merrier, some say, but I guess about 16 teams or so might be the maximum for 1 level league for certain reasons.

I see, thank you for clearing up what you meant, it's easy to not get the whole picture of what one meant, but now I think I got your point.

I have actually debated this league format question quite a lot, as it's totally essential part of the whole league.
While I totally agree with league causing a lot of work, I really also hope there is more than a little payout for most managers.

Personally I'm really not a fan of these kind of league systems (Swiss system etc.) where you don't face all teams, as it's never completely fair and equal to all teams. For instance in a typical regular season when you face each and every team once, then if you can get 7 wins and another team gets 6 wins, you've clearly had more successful season, while in many of these more special systems you only face restricted number of teams, and therefore strength of your schedule (SOS) is less likely equal to other teams SOS.

This kind of league system on my opinion creates multiple problems in terms of equality; by which basis which team faces which (and also importantly, which it doesn't face) which are closely also linked to strength of schedule, SOS (term is being used in NCAA for instance) of each team, in which order should teams face each other and how much would that game result affect to the rankings of the teams, how many teams are included in the postseason play, etc. etc..

In an extreme example of such league, if only 2 teams would get a chance to play in playoff (only final match, like for instance in NHLs' 4 nations face-off tournament), then if lowest ranked team would face best ranked team in their last regular season match then if lower ranked team would win that match, they'd be awarded a place in the final (instead of the number 1 ranked team), which would effectively render all the wins of previously #1 ranked team meaningless due to a loss in one regular season match. This is not to say it couldn't work for some leagues, but I really wouldn't want to have such league system being part of a home grown league.

As for having another website for that, in ideal world I'd root for that idea too. Earlier I mentioned that it would be great to have an own website for the league. But as I'm not an expert on that, I'll leave it for others to comment (how realistic would it be without having experience of website creation, and more importantly, what would be the total cost per year at the very least).

As for now though, we have planned to start a new forum thread for the BBHG league (or whatever it's name will become). However, I think game results (links to game box scores) should be sent to forums instead of BB mail of a Commissioner, as the functionality of BB mail, especially in terms of getting access to old messages, is nothing short of horrendously lousy. But I think we will need yet another forum thread for that, as otherwise these links to box scores will effectively cause too much unwanted traffic on the dedicated BBHG league page (in where we would have most conversation about the league instead of this forum thread, after we've established it that is).

Hello all fellow managers!
Now that I'm in a process to finalize some propositions for the league, I think I'm better off to not throw everything out at once if, and when I've now come across to some challenge that I'd like to have your opinion on (and that could take a bit time to solve, unless someone can solve it in an instant, which is also possible).

So if, and I hope as we'll implement this league as a PU (pickup game) league, I found a challenge we might face.
Also, if and when we implement some sanctions/penalties based on violating these rules, it'd be important to find some surefire way to ensure which way things have actually gone. MrJ earlier proposed that the team which is responsible for sending the challenge to the PU match would be marked to the regular season fixtures (schedule) list, so that's a good idea, but we need to consider these other aspects of PU matches.

So, question is this... how do we ensure, if game isn't being organized/played (and please note there isn't any way for any one of us to verify that, as these games do not show up on team schedule for others than teams involved in PU match) that:
A) Team has actually sent an invitation to PU match
B) Team responsible for accepting the invitation has actually accepted it.

So we'd need to be able to distinguish whose reason was it, and that only because while it's not a loads of work for a regular manager, organizing and playing matches in time is an absolute necessity for this league to run smoothly and equally fairly to all.

To be honest, I'm not a fan of proving this through some kind of screen captures etc., so I'd throw that idea out of window if in any way possible. But what do you guys think, what would be the best (and preferably simultaneously least labor intensive to the Commissioner) method to get a verification for this, should problems arise (matches not being played, or played in a required time window)?

In the case there would be for instance 16 of us, we would have to have more of those 2 games/week weeks though, and it would be slightly more work for regular manager (and a bit more for the commissioner) and make significance of 1 league game slightly less important (13 vs. 15 regular season matches), but as long as someone else would take care of creating a random schedule for the regular season, I guess I'd be open for both options. (MrJ, and if needed demars, already has got us covered here if they are willing to offer their help on this one at least).
The more the merrier, some say, but I guess about 16 teams or so might be the maximum for 1 level league for certain reasons.

I have adjusted my lineup and will be available for next season with a very slim and challenging 10-man HG lineup.
However, we are, by my calculations, at 14. I bbmailed BigChill and his reply was that if someone else wants the spot he would rather they have it. He has previously stated (please correct me if I am wrong, BigChill) that he would rather not have to do too much in the way of setting lineups in advance etc. So, we are still probably at 14.

Is there anyone else out there interested? If so, please make yourself known asap. Although, Wagner, 14 would be fine Im sure.

So, question is this... how do we ensure, if game isn't being organized/played (and please note there isn't any way for any one of us to verify that, as these games do not show up on team schedule for others than teams involved in PU match) that:
A) Team has actually sent an invitation to PU match
B) Team responsible for accepting the invitation has actually accepted it.

I don't want to be negative, but this is one of the few problems running a PU system will need to be addressed.

The answer to your question, Wagner, is simple: we are reliant on managers doing what needs to be done. As for sharing...a screen shot is not ideal (as you noted) but one possibility. Another is that Managers check-in to the thread (the new one that you will need to create for the new league) and make it known that the game was/or was not played.

If it was not played, then what will happen next? Bbmail the manager who didn't do their job? Re-schedule it? These are some of the issues that will likely have to be dealt with on the run. Hopefully, not too many of these issues occur.

I have adjusted my lineup and will be available for next season with a very slim and challenging 10-man HG lineup.
However, we are, by my calculations, at 14. I bbmailed BigChill and his reply was that if someone else wants the spot he would rather they have it. He has previously stated (please correct me if I am wrong, BigChill) that he would rather not have to do too much in the way of setting lineups in advance etc. So, we are still probably at 14.

Is there anyone else out there interested? If so, please make yourself known asap. Although, Wagner, 14 would be fine Im sure.

I'm sure I'm not the only one delighted to see you joining the lineup for the first season of homegrown league!
Yes, I agree that 14 would work well. However, I remembered someone else announced their possible interest earlier on, and sure enough now that I checked out forum again Trouville BBC manager Chucarro let us know in the forum on 19th of February that he might be (or is?) interested in joining the league. Whether or not we'll have additions at this points I guess remains to be seen (and also depends on how other managers feel about this), but if my memory serves me (and based on how he presented his message) he wasn't in our original lineup of 14 teams.

So, question is this... how do we ensure, if game isn't being organized/played (and please note there isn't any way for any one of us to verify that, as these games do not show up on team schedule for others than teams involved in PU match) that:
A) Team has actually sent an invitation to PU match
B) Team responsible for accepting the invitation has actually accepted it.

I don't want to be negative, but this is one of the few problems running a PU system will need to be addressed.

The answer to your question, Wagner, is simple: we are reliant on managers doing what needs to be done. As for sharing...a screen shot is not ideal (as you noted) but one possibility. Another is that Managers check-in to the thread (the new one that you will need to create for the new league) and make it known that the game was/or was not played.

If it was not played, then what will happen next? Bbmail the manager who didn't do their job? Re-schedule it? These are some of the issues that will likely have to be dealt with on the run. Hopefully, not too many of these issues occur.

Indeed it's something we need to figure out, if possible. If we can't come up with clear and easy solution (which I hope we eventually will), then we need to think of ways how we could live with it (I've tried to consider both approaches recently). It is realistic to take a look at the challenge from eye to eye, I don't see this as you trying to put down the project.

Please other managers share your thoughts if you have some of those "light bulb moments", and can figure out a surefire way to handle this (what I mentioned in my message that has been quoted on the top, with A) and B)). I mean sometimes when you try to overthink, or think one thing over and over again, you might not see the obvious solution.
But as MrJ said he also doesn't see an easy solution for this seemingly obvious challenge, I guess we need to be giving this a further thought. For the couple of days I've spent some time creating some draft of rules and penalties, and will likely share some of it quite soon. The draft version right now is exactly that, so I don't prefer to throw it out to the forum just yet. It also needs some tuning and certain changes, and later on likely also small additions - and also like I mentioned, when rules are being created, it's essential what we can verify and what we can't (and therefore what we can penalize and what we can't, and if we can't, how do we handle problematic scenarios so that it's fair as possible to both teams mainly involved, and ultimately to all teams, etc. etc.

So with the risk of repetition, why I threw an open question to all managers to the forum is because in order to be able to create certain rules, it would be absolutely essential for me to know an answer to the A)/B)-question above... because if we can´t veriry it, I need to go back to drawing board big time (but things will get ready soon enough, do not worry about it - we still have weeks before the season starts). I will likely throw some ideas back and forth about that partially ready draft with MrJ by BBMail (if that's fine for you?) and see what we can come up with.

But all fellow managers, please, if you can also think it over/figure out any challenge whatsoever that we could face when we play this league as a pickup game (PU) league, I'd appreciate it if you can share it here on the forum or by BBMail as it will tremendously help in preparation work for the league. There will be certain hiccups with new project no matter how well you try to plan and prepare, but I'd like to make it as smooth ride as possible by being prepared to most likely problematic scenarios.

So, question is this... how do we ensure, if game isn't being organized/played (and please note there isn't any way for any one of us to verify that, as these games do not show up on team schedule for others than teams involved in PU match) that:
A) Team has actually sent an invitation to PU match
B) Team responsible for accepting the invitation has actually accepted it.

I don't want to be negative, but this is one of the few problems running a PU system will need to be addressed.


The answer to your question, Wagner, is simple: we are reliant on managers doing what needs to be done.

I have thought about this quite some time, and surely will keep myself busy with it in the future as well wondering how to best utilize pickup (PU) game system with least complications possible.
To make this message about PU based league possibly more easily understandable, I'd like to share the challenges with PU based league with two categories:
1. Organizing regular season matches (my idea/proposition to solve problem with this at least partly is found below)
2. Organizing playoff matches

As people who have followed this conversation might remember, I originally proposed that we would play mostly one match per week, and playoffs with a pace of 2 matches per week.

However, after giving it more thorough thought, I think in this scenario the greatest bottleneck/risk (of managers not organizing matches in timely manner) would be at the most critical time of the season, playoffs. Having said that, dividing "PU match challenge sending windows" into two different parts/windows in order to be able to organize all regular season matches is definitely not ideal either - that I'll try to solve later in this message.

So to remedy that I instead proposed a while ago that I think we should play 2 games per week, for as long as it's necessary in order to be able to play only 1 regular season match per week and most importantly, only 1 playoff round per week (in an attempt to verify everything goes as planned, and managers won't miss deadlines with invitations and acceptance of PU games).

So having thought this quite a lot, I just had two ideas in mind which could provide partial solution to this. They might not be best or even good solutions, but I'll throw them out so that you guys can at least comment something about it. The last one likely being slightly harder to implement (as we´d need to convince owners/staff), and first one would change our previous plans (weekly timetable) a bit.

I remind all, that currently PU games can be agreed/organized only 2 months ahead from the current day.

However, here they come:

1. As PU games can be organized only 2 months ahead, that means (unless I'm mistaken) that with the current plans, mainly 1 match per week schedule, it could be very or quite hard if not impossible to organize all regular season matches in one go.

While during playoffs it is required for teams to send a new challenge every week (if they keep on winning), regular season has the greatest potential to cause the greatest amount of problems in terms of unsent challenges, unplayed matches etc. and therefore cause more hassle and possibly penalties to teams.

So first proposition would be, that we could play 2 matches per week in regular season, and one match per week in playoffs. This way we would be able to organize all regular season matches in one go, which would make it impossible for teams to miss organizing games, as long as they are honest when confirming on forum or by a BBMail to Commissioner prior to season tip-off that all regular season matches are organized properly.

2. We could try to convince (new) owners (and/or staff?) of Buzzerbeater to extend the possibility to send challenges to PU games until at least to 3 (but preferably 4, as season lasts 98 days?) months, so we could play mostly 1 match per week and organize all regular season matches at once.

Hey All,

Sorry it has been a hot minute, The Buckner Bandits are still 100% homegrown and good for any league yall decide!! :-) Thank you all for setting this up! Gonna be fun!!

Cheers mate, and welcome back! Sorry for ignoring your message earlier - and same for other managers as well to whom I haven't replied on this forum recently - it's been pretty busy on this end too, as the first season of homegrown league is closing in and there are still some things left to be finalized and decided!

It's great to hear other managers are also getting excited/joy out of this league - I'm pretty excited myself (which surely must be an undestatement of the year!) it is definitely going to be lots of fun! In fact for me it's the best thing ever in Buzzerbeater as I couldn't imagine anything more motivating than being and remaining homegrown...

Being able to play with all you fellow managers in a same league, is a Buzzerbeater dream come true for me, so thank you all homegrown managers already beforehand! Lets keep this, and the new forum (that will be established for the BBHG/homegrown league as we get everything/most things concerning the new league finalized) active in the future as well! :)