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Hello !

I couldn't play in any Private League, cos' I'm not supporter.
We did prepare everything to manage a PickUp League, so ... here we go !
We could even start tomorrow (yes tomorrow) with 4 teams, just for testing.

I think we talked too much, now we should act, simply but firmly ;)

I completely agree.

Good to hear from you demars (and of course from you MrJ as well), one of the managers that have most actively kept this forum thread active!

@demars:
I do want to add, or basically repeat my previous opinion here: I do not think we should do any kind of testing in form of running a league, other than "on paper" and planning it as well as possible. We have one shot to start it, and will never get another one. So let's do it with style... :) I understand people are wanting to play, but start of next season will come soon enough in my opinion. So to all: don't worry, we will get there soon.

@ MrJ: I really like and appreciate your lengthy responses, and I hope your style never changes on that. I prefer thorough, thoughtful responses any day. However, as I'd want to also give thorough replies, it sometimes (now, for instance) creates a problem as today I don't have enough time to do so. But progress things even a tiny bit, I'll give partial reply here.

(The problem with these shorter replies is though, that in many cases I've noticed people won't get my point as clearly, or the conversation sometimes takes turn into an undesirable direction unless I open my thought patterns/reasons behind my reasoning immediately. Doing that on the other hand takes lots of time, but which I hope will pay off for instance by other people agreeing with the reasoning more easily if they clearly see where I'm coming from and see that I've given thought to multiple views/opinions before reaching some given conclusion).

Yes, we have been busy planning, and maybe therefore not taking every possible effort to ask an opinion from all managers. But as for opinions on different aspects of the league go, I think we have also asked numerous questions on different aspects and also given the community a lot of chances and encouraged them to voice their opinions, but have not received all that many opinions, especially ones with further explanations (on where some opinions of them stems from/is based on, why it would/wouldn't be a good decision etc.). So I take it that most managers would probably be willing to accept the basics of the league, or are for one reason or another reluctant to participate in public conversation on this topic.

On the other hand, maybe there's also this thing/aspect that as at the later part of 2024 I threw out in the public this idea of establishing BBHG league, I do have some somewhat strong and clear opinions how this BBHG league should look like, and therefore I might be up for creating some of the base work (such as what was done in league system part - the 12 team playoffs etc.) and see how people would take it/accept it. Having said that, we can in many cases follow the real life rules and/or BB-rules (however, those differ from country and from continent to continent on some parts) and I guess on most part, rules/penalties differing from typical Buzzerbeater or "real life rules" would mostly concern the homegrown aspect of the league (especially penalty wise).
As for planning of rules etc.: like I mentioned, I'd be willing to create some structure on it (with MrJ? BBMail?) and see how people receive propositions.

And then all important question for all... Would you please consider the following, and list all the problems we ever could face in the Pickup game style league, as that's what this league is all about? You can send them here in the forum, or by BB-Mail.
I'm asking this because myself and MrJ could miss some key aspects, as we do not have experience on running such league, and having a clear understanding on what can go wrong helps us to create
- clear league structure (which is basically already almost finalized given that people will agree with 12 team playoff format, which I understood they do),
- league rules, and
- league penalty system (different penalties for violations, as dealing things only on case by case basis would also trigger someone to claim they have been treated unequally)

I apologise if you thought I was upset with your lack of presence recently. I was actually referring to the thread in general rather than you specifically. If you or I aren't posting, it seems silent. This doesn't bode well, in my opinion, for having managers assist in completing this PU version of a HG League. This is why I have put the whole Private League question out there.

Thank you for your consideration - I didn't thought you were upset with me, I just were surprised of the change of focus in discussion (towards the private league). But you nailed your point - if neither us have been sending messages, it has been more or less silent, of which I've raised my "concerns" already before. Which of course leads to another challenge of PU league and it's commissioner/staff - if people are not willing to post much on the forum, I'm not sure how many/how much anyone would be interested in helping with the administrative (commissioner) duties.

Like I mentioned before, in terms of the homegrown league that we have planned:
A) I wouldn't expect "regular" BBHG league managers to take over staff duties (if no other way, and if you, MrJ, don't have time/energy to take over some duties, then I suppose I'll see during the first season if it proves to be too much work - I don't like to give up easily either but there's limit for all),
B) I don't have experience on running such league, so I couldn't tell if it's doable alone/by two managers in terms of work load in the long run
C) I wouldn't mind if BBHG would become official part of BB, but owners haven't commented on this forum
D) Private league will never be able to replace this league I suggested, by being free to all. In terms of everything else than fixed (?) league system it's a lot more low maintenance than Pickup game league (BBHG) like you mentioned.

I must say that I understand where you are coming from in everything you have noted. However, I am not sure whether I have the energy to continue working through the PickUp system knowing that it will always be reliant on a couple of managers to orchestrate everything, while relying on all participating managers to do their part with pickup tokens (the core of the system) and, as such, is prone to mistakes and failure.

As it stands right now I am torn. On the one hand I want to continue what I have started in helping you and others create the PU version of the HGL simply because I don't like to quit and it would provide a 'free' league for all; yet, on the other hand, I really like the low-maintenance a PL provides, which is already familiar, organised and ready-to-go.

I totally get that. Like I mentioned before, if I'd have enough money, I'd just buy everyone supporter package instead and do it as a private league. But, and this is a very important point, as long as not everyone willing (and qualified) to participate aren't able to participate due to not being supporter, I would't dare to call myself a champ playing in such league; it'd be an invitational/pay to participate-league for the ones willing to throw in the cash. A total no-no for me. Just as would be 2 same leagues competing with each other (PL and PU simultaneously).

I do read your message somewhat in between the lines too, and of course agree that low-maintenance part (probably even more so after likely being a commissioner for whole season), and I kind of sense that you use word "free" due to time not being free, and time consuming it surely can be.

So I think I understand with what you mean by being torn. I'm not torn though, as this seems only way to get it done. I am, however, worried that if you do decide to withdraw your contribution towards the league, that how much work it will become for one person. But I guess only time would tell, and if we create good enough systems for everything (certain rules, certain methods for sending box scores of games etc.) maybe it'll still remain reasonably manageable.

I must say that I understand where you are coming from in everything you have noted. However, I am not sure whether I have the energy to continue working through the PickUp system knowing that it will always be reliant on a couple of managers to orchestrate everything, while relying on all participating managers to do their part with pickup tokens (the core of the system) and, as such, is prone to mistakes and failure.

It is indeed prone to mistakes and failure. Frankly, I don't like that side of Pickup league either. But as I said, I don't see any other way to get this done than by organizing Pickup games. Unless we have some bitcoin millionaire here playing with us who wants to fund a supporter for each willing participant. :D

Back to the mistake and failure prone system: this leads us to two things mentioned earlier.
First, we'd prefer certain commitment from the managers that join the league.
Second, due to our hopes of that not having more than a slight effect to the end result, I think there needs to be set of rules and penalties to discourage managers to make this BBHG league a wrong kind of playground, from which other managers would then suffer.
Penalties for violations exist for a reason, as you and demars, being teachers, very well know. :) I'm all for not having locks in doors, but unfortunately world doesn't run that way, and therefore I find that there needs to be consequences, especially as basically nothing will come by surprise (given that we create good enough rules and penalties - section for our new league).

Also, like you (and I) mentioned, it is not ideal that league is so dependent on "staff" of 1-2, given than no one of us works for BB and likely the amount of work included will be somewhat considerable. We all also have some restrictions, with which we have to live with - for instance, I already warn everyone, that if and when I'd be a league commissioner, I do not have the habit of logging on each and every day so you will not most likely get super quick answer to all your questions and comments. Expecting more traffic on the forum and in BB mail would cause me to login more often though, but just a word of warning already before for you guys who have used to receiving replies within minutes or hours to all their messages.

With a Private League version, there cannot be any mistakes after the league is launched, other than managers not fielding 100% HG players. Yet, I have prepared a couple simple consequences for that. Which leads me to the rules and regulations we were discussing for the PU system...where we don't seem to agree on the level of complexity the rules require. I prefer simple.

Can you elaborate on what kind of consequences you prepared? I can then write some thoughts here in the forum or by BBmail.

I see the positive side of simple rules. However, also this is the problem: even this kind of league isn't super simple if you consider what kind of problematic scenarios this Pickup game league system could create. Having simple solutions for complicated problem scenarios sounds good on paper, but even theoretically achieving that would require especially good pre planning so that one could anticipate all possible problem scenarios.
Simple is also problematic in that sense, that if it's due to some situation that's not mentioned/written in rules/penalties-section, it eventually forces commissioner/staff to make penalty decisions totally "a case by case basis", which may lead to harsh criticism as such decisions will likely not become equal(ly strict) to all.
NCAA (which also has hundreds of basketball programs running) is pretty good example - they do have several different levels on their punishments/penalties, which effectively makes breaking rules less beneficial/tempting.

All managers: Would you send thoughts on what kind of problematic scenarios we could face in BBHG league when organizing it as a Pickup game league?

Thank you for those 3 people who have commented here so far about which they prefer...a PickUp system or a Private League version of the HG League.

@ demars and Hadar. Thanks for your responses. I respect your reasons.

We still have more than 10 people who are yet to voice their opinion.

@ Wagner. Regarding the simple rules and regulations:

I believ that while we can spend the remainder of the weeks fine-tuning all the little consequences for those managers who do not uphold the expectations of participating in the HG league, I propose we begin with trust and simplicity:

As I noted in a previous post, I have been preparing a PL, too, just in case people are wanting this to go ahead. However, PL rules would differ to PU rules (see below). For a PU system, regarding rules and consequences, I would suggest a simple way to deal with any managers not playing by the rules in terms of fielding HG players. This is the most likely problem we will face other than managers not setting PickUp games in time. That, I believe, can be solved with the Commissioner sending reminder bbmails weeks prior to them being needed to be set. If these reminders are done, I doubt we will have any managers not getting it done.

So, to the consequences I mentioned:

(i) Any team which plays non-HG player(s) in any game during the HG League will receive a bbmail (from the Commissioner) reminding them about the HG rules we run this league under. They have time to fix this by either selling or firing any player(s) which is not HG and should not be on their team. Any players who are not HG need to be fired or sold before the next PU game. If the player is for sale, and the sale date is after the start of the next PU game, the player is not allowed to play in that game or any others until they are fired or sold.

(ii) Any team that plays a non-HG player(s) in more than 1 game, despite being reminded through a bbmail by the commissioner, will not be invited to play in the following season.




Last edited by MrJ at 2/23/2025 2:04:41 AM

So, these are simple and, in my opinion, fair. Yes, they could be far more complex. And we could certainly list countless other consequences for a range of varying indiscretions. However, I think we should approach this HG League with the following in mind:

1. Managers are HG-minded and here to compete against other HG teams.
2. Trust is given, not earned. That is, we begin the league by assuming they will do the right thing.
3. We are all human, make mistakes, and will respond well if respected.


So, keep it simple!

I have also come to appreciate a great advantage the PU system has over the PL version, and this dovetails neatly to what I have just said about the positive attitude we should have for this league regarding rules.

In a PL, everything is done for you. That is, once the schedule (away/home) and number of games has been decided, then the teams invited and accepted, everything else become automated. This can be a positive, but there is one great negative to this:

If a team, or teams, break the HG rules(s) and we wish for those game results to not be counted, we can simply ignore those game results in a PU league. We cannot do that in a PL league as it will run until it is finished even if teams deliberately break the rules in some or every game!

Therefore, a PU system will allow us to count or disregard weekly games where the rules were broken if we deem this part of the consequences. That is, we could amend the 2 simple consequences I listed above to state the following:


Rule Breaks and Their Consequences:

(i) Any team which plays non-HG player(s) in any game during the HG League will receive a bbmail (from the Commissioner) reminding them about the HG rules we run this league under (Warning) AND have their result for that game recorded as a 0-50 LOSS. They have time to fix this by either selling or firing any player(s) which is not HG and should not be on their team. Any players who are not HG need to be fired or sold before the next PU game. If the player is for sale, and the sale date is after the start of the next PU game, the player is not allowed to play in that game or any other game.

(ii) Any team that plays a non-HG player(s) in more than 1 game, despite being reminded through a bbmail by the commissioner (warning), will receive a 0-50 LOSS for that game and be immediately disqualified* from playing in the competition.

*DISQUALIFIED TEAMS:

A) When a team is disqualified, ALL games they have competed in up until and including the game that disqualified them...will be altered to a 0-50 loss.
B) If PU games have already been scheduled with a disqualified team, those games, regardless of their actual results, will also be altered to reflect 0-50 losses.
C) All future scheduled games with a disqualified team that are yet to be set, will become 50-0 wins for that team.


This was my idea for the PU system. It would be much different in a PL league, where this amount of control does not exist until the season is finished.

Last edited by MrJ at 2/23/2025 2:12:24 AM

I can make a pick up or a private league work for me, but a private league is definitely easier as there's less admin once up and running, right? And let's be honest, we all have other things that will pop up and I'm sure someone will miss a game one week if having to organise games each week.

Sorry for being less active in the forum, I try to check in on it each week, but I also have a lot of other places to be across so miss sometimes.

I can make a pick up or a private league work for me, but a private league is definitely easier as there's less admin once up and running, right? And let's be honest, we all have other things that will pop up and I'm sure someone will miss a game one week if having to organise games each week.

Sorry for being less active in the forum, I try to check in on it each week, but I also have a lot of other places to be across so miss sometimes.

Yes, we all have different things going on as well, and therein lies the challenge. But to counteract this we have already suggested that regular season games will be organized in 2 different time windows (as Pickup games are possible to organize no more than 2 months away from the current day), not every week. There still remains a problem with managers not following the rule, which would effectively harm the league.

And in my eyes, it's better to prepare well and think of possible problematic scenarios before the season, rather than deal with it in the midst of the season on case by case basis, when (if not) some problems will arise (not necessarily during the 1st season, but even that doesn't mean this everlasting challenge wouldn't exist). So while it's a nice and good approach to trust, and while we expect managers that join to have respect towards each other and the league, I also want to place some safeguards so that it doesn't become wrong kind of play field for some managers that wouldn't be up for committing for at least duration of one season (buying restricted players, organizing their own matches).

Also, while I was thinking of bringing it up later on, I think organizing Pickup games is the most critical part, so therefore while problems are most likely avoided (mostly at least) by organizing regular season matches in two time windows instead of one, I think we do need to do the following: play 2 matches per week in the beginning of the season, for as many weeks as it's necessary to be able to play only 1 regular season match for the rest of the season, and only 1 playoff round per week. See, these playoff matches are going be have to be organized separately for each and every match. And if we'd play 2 playoff matches per week, we'd run the serious risk of matches not being played in time or at all (and again, if not played in a given time frame, that should probably also cause sanctions).
And I'd hate to see these "walk-ons"/forfeits due to people not organizing matches, that ruins the fun for all. And in some worst cases, unless some other systems/rules are being created (or if we use 0-50 or other forfeit rule), we'd have to change into a winning percentage based league table in a midst of a season if teams wouldn't have the same amount of regular season games.

Also, as "a regular manager" of the BBHG league wouldn't have other responsibilities than organizing Pickup matches (and sticking with the other rules!), it shouldn't be too much to ask - which should be reflected in strictness of penalties when failing to do so.

I will open up my suggestions and reasoning behind more complicated set of rules/penalties for violations a bit later on, but as a tasting, like MrJ noted, BBHG will be league for homegrown managers, who will commit for the league at least for one season in one go. That is like 3 real life months. This is not too much to ask. (If it is too much, then it's probably not a right league for such managers anyway).

So keeping this in mind, how would anyone playing in the league just start buying players while knowing the league rules? They shouldn't, but they could (at some point in the long run). However, if you'd buy "restricted" players, that should immediately trigger that "second level" penalty (out for this and for the next season). But if you'd even play those "restricted" players in BBHG league match, you couldn't give a bigger middle finger to the league if you tried, so it should be current+2 seasons penalty.

*DISQUALIFIED TEAMS:

A) When a team is disqualified, ALL games they have competed in up until and including the game that disqualified them...will be altered to a 0-50 loss.
B) If PU games have already been scheduled with a disqualified team, those games, regardless of their actual results, will also be altered to reflect 0-50 losses.
C) All future scheduled games with a disqualified team that are yet to be set, will become 50-0 wins for that team.


This was my idea for the PU system. It would be much different in a PL league, where this amount of control does not exist until the season is finished.

Thank you for your propositions. I will send a thorough reply a bit later, as I have somewhat differing (stricter) views about the penalty and rules structure (which you could probably guess from my previous messages).

But for now I'll just quickly reply to one of the aspects of your message, or rather part of it (as this 0-50 "forfeit rule", should we apply it to the league, is best further discussed) concerning your part A).

While I don't deny there's some logic to it, I think it's still a clear fact that team that is being disqualified has been played all their matches fairly until that point, and I see less good than bad in wiping those previous match results, so I think those results should remain valid.

But maybe even more importantly, from the practical (commissioner) standpoint, I see it as an only realistic option to keep and update league table and results manually, and I'm not crazy about starting to count everything again from the scratch (wins, point differentials, etc.) if some team fails to follow the rules and decides to become ineligible, in other words disqualified from the league. Your read correct - it is a decision, which is intentionally/deliberately made (if it is made) and there is no excuse for it.

One could do it if they so wish, but we do not want to encourage that. And, as once again mentioned, one is joining the league knowing (at least most of these) penalties, so it's a deliberate middle finger to the league if you decide not to remain homegrown. And it's not like penalties from violations would even affect any other part of your Buzzerbeater, only BBHG league, so if you absolutely need to buy that player to avoid relegation, you are free to do so - just be aware that it does have consequences in terms of participating to remainder and following season of the BBHG league (and the season after that too, if you ask me, if you have had nerves to even dress/play those "illegal" players in BBHG league matches).

So for instance for these reasons (among others, don't get me started;), in addition to trust, strict approach to certain aspects of rules and penalties is necessary in my opinion. This doesn't mean that I wouldn't trust managers joining the league. However, there's a funny thing with consequences - it often times makes you do things you otherwise maybe wouldn't do, and I think we want to encourage commitment to the league as much as possible and do everything possible to attract committed enough managers. And one way to keep it functioning as much itself as possible is to make sure everyone is sticking with the rules/protocol.

And impact of such neglectful behavior towards the league and other teams/managers should be minimized to begin with, and the amount of additional work that that kind of undesirable behavior causes to a commissioner should also be minimized, which could be ensured (at least to some extent) by having clear set of rules, penalties and expectations for the managers.

Set of rules and penalties doesn't need to be the most complicated system in the world, but I don't think we should oversimplify this either (your example system wasn't total oversimplification, I don't mean that), but I do have some additions in mind which I will share in some of the forthcoming messages.

@ Deano25. Good to hear from you, mate. I am also leaning more towards the PL than the PU version, although both have strengths and weaknesses. I would still like to hear from more managers about which they prefer.

@Wagner. While I do not agree with too many rules and regulations for managers, as I believe this might cause managers to be unwilling to compete in the first place, I do acknowledge your commitment to this HG League and setting up in a manner you believe correct.

On that note...

...I would like to nominate you formerly as the first 'Commissioner' of the HG League. You have a very clear idea of what this league should look like and have obviously thought about it in detail. As the Commissioner, you can guide all of us in the direction you believe will benefit the creation and maintenance of the HG League.

Can I get some support from other managers to make Wagner the Commissioner?