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Quick question, Wagner: I didn't see any rule anywhere about players using performance enhancing drugs. So, I guess my boys can use them? We certainly will need something extraordinary to score...well, let's say...50 points tonight.

Good luck tonight, Deano; You will need it. My boys are pumped!

As a league practice, 5 strong caffeine tablets per match (1 per quarter plus 1 for overtime) are allowed per player.
This might add up to +5% to your FG%, and up to 1 skill pop to your defending and rebounding abilities temporarily, which plays to your advantage (unless Deano's boys also do the same), so thank me later ;D

Let's be clear...I need +95% otherwise it's a 100-point punishment tonight!

But I appreciate the clarification, Commissioner Wagner. Now everyone is clear on which drugs can or cannot be taken and in what dose.

And Deano...my Patient Offense, together with an acceptable amount of caffeine tablets, means the Heywood Dogs will be in a dogfight tonight. As in the dogs will fight and the serpents will roll over and play 'dead snake.'

Never trust a wounded snake, that's my Dad always said, they could lash out at any minute. We'll be on our guard tonight, don't worry about that!

To be fair, if I hadn't been a part of the creation of the HGL with you and others, my team's entry (with $55k salaries) couldn't have been justified. I am sure that every team that has faced me in the HGL thus far this season has done so with out any real thought to game tactics...because my team is essentially a bot-like team. So, my participation in Season 2 is a positive for the HGL I believe. It will allow for a stronger field.

However, as I said, I will be back...and stronger than ever.

Well, justifiable is a flexible term in this case, as team selection criteria in HGL are not "locked" so to speak. Having said that, it was clear from the beginning that score wise it's going to be very difficult season for you with those salaries (just as was the case with Big Chillers), but that's not all there is.

And yes, score wise your team might have been a bot like team for many, and huge score differences aren't totally ideal, I agree. However, while I didn't suspect I wouldn't win your team when we faced, I did try to place optimal tactics (other than predicting your offensive speed and focus) for our match.

And I don't know about you others, but while I'm very serious about HGL, I still also play it for fun. So for me it adds the fun to the experience if I can for instance give some of my older players couple of minutes play time here or there, without having to think about score difference of each game (like in my own "regular" BB league), so also in that sense HGL is a breath of fresh air.

While I don't agree with that mostly, I understand what you meant with your teams' absence from Season 2 being a positive thing for HGL. As long as league isn't getting overcrowded (now we are already 2 teams short of our Season 1 team lineup, even if we'd accept newcomers Hårdboll and Eos), HGL has space for all levels of teams, as long as they're ready and willing to stay committed for the duration of whole season no matter what their season success is.

As a response to your absence creating stronger field, it is true technically as now 2 sub-$60K teams will exit HGL.
But there's a limit when the reduction in amount of teams becomes counterproductive.
I would prefer to see as close as possible to 16 teams playing in HGL each season. So therefore I'd also find it important to have at least large enough amount of teams and being able to play only once (and not twice) per season against each opponent, to keep it more interesting.

What can be done to ensure all this?
Making HGL so good and tempting option, that people will choose it anyway. If we take an all-important fact - that Home-Grown League will always remain free for all participants - into consideration here, then either HGL becoming official part of BB and becoming "an automatically organized league", or remaining as it is now (manually coordinated league) are the only possibilities to ensure Home Grown League to remain free for all.
Home-Grown League remaining free is really the only way to go in my opinion. It should be like US Open, British Open etc., where every qualified participant is given right at least to play play-in matches to determine participation rights for next season, and not like Pay-to-Participate style of Private League (PL).
(Pay to participate style of league is always also in one sense pay to win-style league, as you can't participate without paying).

What else would be beneficial for HGL?
We should do all we can to promote HGL to HG managers still not aware of it, and put our efforts into that one common goal. While HG community in Buzzerbeater is certainly bigger than teams presented in LOPO's list of homegrown teams (not all HG teams are included), it's still not too big and for that reason already, we should put all work towards HGL.
For the future and positive development of HGL, it would be very beneficial also to have only one HG-teams based league for first (not Utopian) teams,

Never trust a wounded snake, that's my Dad always said, they could lash out at any minute. We'll be on our guard tonight, don't worry about that!

Your dad sounds like a wise man.

What else would be beneficial for HGL?
We should do all we can to promote HGL to HG managers still not aware of it, and put our efforts into that one common goal. While HG community in Buzzerbeater is certainly bigger than teams presented in LOPO's list of homegrown teams (not all HG teams are included), it's still not too big and for that reason already, we should put all work towards HGL.
For the future and positive development of HGL, it would be very beneficial also to have only one HG-teams based league for first (not Utopian) teams,

I understand you are referencing here the 'other' league. And, as we discussed privately, our opinions differ where this is concerned.

All I will add here is that the HG community is bigger than that we currently know and all HG managers, and indeed all non-HG managers, should have options. Particularly the managers of Utopian HG teams who are excluded from the HGL because...well...just because it seems.

HG is HG. Utopian or otherwise.

EDIT: It seems we have done this dance before you and I (324689.73) and (324689.78)




Last edited by MrJ at 5/19/2025 8:55:15 AM

What else would be beneficial for HGL?
We should do all we can to promote HGL to HG managers still not aware of it, and put our efforts into that one common goal. While HG community in Buzzerbeater is certainly bigger than teams presented in LOPO's list of homegrown teams (not all HG teams are included), it's still not too big and for that reason already, we should put all work towards HGL.
For the future and positive development of HGL, it would be very beneficial also to have only one HG-teams based league for first (not Utopian) teams,

I understand you are referencing here the 'other' league. And, as we discussed privately, our opinions differ where this is concerned.

All I will add here is that the HG community is bigger than that we currently know and all HG managers, and indeed all non-HG managers, should have options. Particularly the managers of Utopian HG teams who are excluded from the HGL because...well...just because it seems.

HG is HG. Utopian or otherwise.

Yes, our opinion differs on these things.
Having Utopian teams in HGL is to me against the spirit of HGL, also as Utopian teams are not part of LOPO's original Home-Grown teams-listing (but also for other reasons previously discussed on Homegrown Teams II-thread, that are dreadful to link into this discussion due to not being Supporter; finding something like that later on from a thread is usually an arduous process).

It's a positive thing if and as HG community is bigger than we know, but the key point here is how do we realize the benefit of that to HGL?

From my point of view, benefit for HGL will not be realized by establishing a competing league, that will divide the time&attention of teams and/or reduce participation of teams to HGL. If people who otherwise might have played/participated in HGL will "take the easy way", well, because it's easy, then of course having such league available is a direct and dividing competitor of HGL, that has then effectively reduced the amount of participants in HGL.
How should I see that in a positive light? I don't expect you to give me an answer to this, because I suspect there is no positive one available...

Establishing a separate PL league for only Utopian HG based teams would be completely another story, as it'd be understandable, and from that standpoint it wouldn't directly compete with HGL in terms of participation (as you can't participate in such league with your first team anyway).
To quote you: " all HG managers, and indeed all non-HG managers, should have options. Particularly the managers of Utopian HG teams who are excluded from the HGL".

If you don't stick with offering only Utopian teams this (understandable) opportunity, these "options" offered by you would then quite possibly weaken HGL in the long run, as people in reality are in average very comfort seeking. In some things in life it's a good characteristics (and guarantees the development in many parts of life), but how should I see this being a good thing for HGL in this case?

Like I have said numerous of times, HG community isn't huge and making another league, especially the one that fights against the very important spirit of HGL - being always free to all - I think has a potential to do a major disservice to HGL. I'd like to see HGL in a way being the center point of HG community, that brings all of us together in one.

Other point is that pay-to-participate style of league should never replace HGL as a "premier/go-to"-option, but opinions on this will be differing and eventually that's likely happen in the case of some managers. How is this not a competitor of HGL (as both accept first teams), I´m again asking?

However, it is a fact that I have no means to stop anyone doing anything they want to do in BB, but I can only give my strong recommendation: I don't see that beneficial at all for the future of HGL.

Last edited by Wagner at 5/19/2025 9:26:33 AM

Other point is that pay-to-participate style of league should never replace HGL as a "premier/go-to"-option, but opinions on this will be differing and eventually that's likely happen in the case of some managers. How is this not a competitor of HGL (as both accept first teams), I´m again asking?

This is your opinion, Wagner. Respectfully, not everyone will agree. I do not.

I am concerned with ALL HG teams, and excluding some (Utopian HG teams) because they don't fit into your view of what is HG is something, as you know well, I strongly disagree with. HG is HG.

The 'other' league (and I call it this out of respect for your feelings) is an opportunity for managers to have the freedom of choice, as well as being the 'only' HG option for Utopian teams.

BB is big enough for the both of them.

“From my point of view, benefit for HGL will not be realized by establishing a competing league, that will divide the time&attention of teams and/or reduce participation of teams to HGL. If people who otherwise might have played/participated in HGL will "take the easy way", well, because it's easy, then of course having such league available is a direct and dividing competitor of HGL, that has then effectively reduced the amount of participants in HGL.
How should I see that in a positive light? I don't expect you to give me an answer to this, because I suspect there is no positive one available... “

I suspect some managers may play both, but for me 100% I would prefer to take “the easier way” and if a large amount of managers were to choose to do so I would think that is cause for reflection.
And before anyone kicks off about “pay to play” those of us who do buy subscriptions get no match day benefits from that while everyone else in the game benefits from us helping to bankroll it for them. Games like this don’t exist for free.

“From my point of view, benefit for HGL will not be realized by establishing a competing league, that will divide the time&attention of teams and/or reduce participation of teams to HGL. If people who otherwise might have played/participated in HGL will "take the easy way", well, because it's easy, then of course having such league available is a direct and dividing competitor of HGL, that has then effectively reduced the amount of participants in HGL.
How should I see that in a positive light? I don't expect you to give me an answer to this, because I suspect there is no positive one available... “

I suspect some managers may play both, but for me 100% I would prefer to take “the easier way” and if a large amount of managers were to choose to do so I would think that is cause for reflection.

Reflection? How does one's reflection change the nature of the league?
It will always include certain amount of manual work for regular manager and for Commissioner, as long as it's not official part of BB. So all the reflection in the world doesn't change this fact.
But in general I don't think this should be too much work for a regular HGL manager, and therefore be a decisive factor for someone not to participate. I guess for some it's still too much, such as to yourself and maybe to Gccsteel, if I can recall correctly this being one of the reasons why he isn't participating for Season 2. Also you didn't like certain league practices etc., but you've mentioned them already before so no recap is needed here.

Or maybe your "reflection" meant that in your opinion HGL should change the league rules/practices, or something like that, who knows. But in my opinion this again in general has very little, if anything to do with how arduous people would feel HGL to be, so again I don't think "reflecting" would change anything. Some people will always view things differently, some feel something is arduous when another one doesn't see it that way at all.

On the other hand, if you meant by "reflecting" that maybe it shouldn't then exist if users aren't participating in large numbers, I would strongly disagree with that, as the one an only correct standpoint for a league (should at any point only one league exist, such as during this Season 1 of HGL) is "free for all qualified HG participants"-type of league.

So with due respect, suggesting that "reflection" would be then needed feels very tacky to be honest with you... Because in practice, as I as a non-native speaker hears it/how I understand it, it means that "I should then look at the mirror and blame myself if people wouldn't participate to HGL". What makes it tacky to me is also the fact that there are some built in differences between PL and PU leagues, and like mentioned, no amount of reflecting makes those differences (such as certain amount of work included in PU type leagues) disappear.

And before anyone kicks off about “pay to play” those of us who do buy subscriptions get no match day benefits from that while everyone else in the game benefits from us helping to bankroll it for them. Games like this don’t exist for free.

Well, it's good of course that some want to pay to play. However, they do rely partly on advertizing as well, which I guess everyone who plays has noticed... I have no data though on how much of their income is created through advertizing and how much through Supporter orders.

However, I do not wish to pay to play (this game), just like so many others. And from this standpoint I have a strong opinion, that for me all notable leagues are free ones, not pay to play-ones. While some could argue that HGL is now an invitational league, in it's spirit it's rather an open league for all qualified participants. And all notable competition should be free to all.

So again, I'm not going to be happy about it if establishing some other HG based league will cause managers to not to participate to HGL.

Other point is that pay-to-participate style of league should never replace HGL as a "premier/go-to"-option, but opinions on this will be differing and eventually that's likely happen in the case of some managers. How is this not a competitor of HGL (as both accept first teams), I´m again asking?

This is your opinion, Wagner. Respectfully, not everyone will agree. I do not.

Which part of it don't you agree with?

That it should't become "premier/go to-league"?

Or that it's not a competing league for HGL (even though it accommodates same teams)?

Or some other aspect, such as you being fine with pay to play-type of league being the main HG league?

HGL, or originally BBHG, was established with this main goal in mind and in center/heart of all, that it will be forever free and open to all qualifying participants (depending on resources, of course, but at least to guarantee play in matches/playoffs to determine participation rights for next season if we couldn't accept all participants some season due to league size), and no other than Pickup game-type of league can fulfill this extremely important demand/point.

I am concerned with ALL HG teams, and excluding some (Utopian HG teams) because they don't fit into your view of what is HG is something, as you know well, I strongly disagree with. HG is HG.

You are presenting this so, that this would be my view only (that Utopian teams should be excluded from HG type of leagues). As a repeat, this is an original definition used by LOPO when he compiled this list of Home-Grown teams on Homegrown Teams II-thread, and I'm certainly not alone with my critical view on Utopian teams participation to HGL.

The 'other' league (and I call it this out of respect for your feelings) is an opportunity for managers to have the freedom of choice, as well as being the 'only' HG option for Utopian teams.

BB is big enough for the both of them.

Like mentioned, let's say it again - it's understandable for Utopian teams, as they do not have a place where to compete at this moment (between HG competitors).

However, "BB is big enough for both" I think misses the point completely, or then I just misunderstood it. Of course BB is big enough, as there are no limits within BB.

How we should approach this is rather through question, that is active and committed HG community big enough for both (in terms of numbers and committed managers; especially valid question, if at any point this another league causes HGL to lose managers, who could've played in HGL instead)?
(And no, I'm not looking especially at you Deano25 or Gccsteel right now, you at least had a go in HGL and then you didn't decide to proceed to Season 2 - but this would be especially notable/important thing for new-to-HGL managers who could just choose the "easy way" instead of even playing in HGL, and this I find very negative).

If I wouldn't have any doubts that establishing such league would negatively affect HGL, I wouldn't try to persuade you to restrict this league to Utopian teams only (which it doesn't seem you're going to do).

People often times pull out this freedom of choice card, and while it's theoretically nice on many occasions, it is not without problems - as I said earlier (maybe in BBMail to you), that these leagues are not played in vacuum, and everything affects everything, in good and in bad. I really don't see how another league could affect HGL in an positive way. And as far as I'm concerned, there does not need to be "million choices", as there's already HGL. Is it perfect? Absolutely not, nothing ever is. However, I think it should remain at the heart/center of HG community.

Oh well, I have now kind of used my only tools for driving a change - my persuasion attempts, requests and suggestions - and whatever you end up doing, I can only hope it doesn't affect HGL negatively.

Hi Wagner,
What I mean by reflection is, like any product that gets created, if the people interested in that product go on to find something that meets their needs better they may end up choosing that second product. It is then up to the people behind the first product to reflect on why and decide if anything about their product should change. They may decide it doesn't need to because they like it the way it is, which is fine, but at least thinking about it and being open to consider that not everyone will think like them is always a good way to grow and evolve.