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Homegrown teams (II)

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From: Wagner

This Post:
00
324689.220 in reply to 324689.218
Date: 1/11/2025 8:18:49 PM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
211211
About Schedule.

It's easy (for me ) to re-arrange the schedule if we don't want that the best teams win easily the 8-10 first games.
If we want something else, just tell me.

I'm glad it's easy for you, if we don't end up using Playpass for some reason. MrJ made Playpass sound very tempting and functionable option too. I'm not sure I'd start using it any time soon, but there do seem to be some of us here that are trying to get things started, so league commissioner(s) job(s) doesn't need to be one man show(s) anyway.. :)

I don't know Playpass and it's functionality either (it would be nice to hear from you who have been using it, that what kind of options and possibilities it offers in terms of, well, everything) but as far as I understood (and remember from what I read from MrJs' post) so far, the match generator in Playpass appears to generate matches randomly(?).

I don't remember if someone mentioned there was a possibility to alter match schedule generator some way, or does it always stay random - and does it take into account same league level team strengths on users request when creating match order for round robin league?). On the other hand does my memory serve me that demars you wrote that Playpass created almost the same kind of match schedule than what was created by your own system?

Making match schedule random has good and bad sides, like I wrote before. S(ome more educated people than me have written quite a lot about it in reddit for instance). If it's random, someone will always "suffer" from unfair timing on those most important matches in a given season, compared to some other team in the league. On the other hand randomness tends to equalize over a long period of time. And if match fixture is randomly created, it is highly unlikely (read: next to impossible) that for instance worst team would face teams in this (unfair sounding) order: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, then 5th etc. (which order would practically extremely probably ruin their season early on).

However, I can't waste this good opportunity to say that I think all the games matter in this league, whether or not you've lost your chances for playoffs for that season.
We are creating our own amazing piece of Buzzerbeater history (and I want to keep this going indefinitely!), and hopefully things will grow even bigger in the future. Having said that, 14 is an excellent number to start with!

And if we'd change the match order manually, then at least I find it very difficult to evaluate which changes in fixture would make it better and keep changes equal to all teams (because the order of which you face teams does have effect to some extent I think). I might be overthinking this or thinking the wrong way, but I tried to make something in Excel and failed miserably when I tried to change match order while keeping record which match needs to be transferred to which week and whether or not the balance of schedule remains fair and equal after this and this change....

It's very difficult to explain, but experiment was hard. Just as a rough example (if you haven't tried it in Excel yourself), when you for instance change five matches (out of 7 weekly matches) from, say week 3 to week 6, and another four from week 1 to 5, then few other from week 2 to 8, and 6 matches from week 4 to 1, and then four from week 5 to 1, etc. etc., you might be lost at that point whether or not:
A) all matches are still surely played (or did you create duplicate matches some week, and/or is some match now missing altogether)
B) did this really improve the balance/sensibility of the match order, and
C) very importantly, if it did improve balance, did the match order remain equally fair to all simultaneously?

This last point, C), I find quite hard to make sure when you alter things manually, because 1 change affects everything else. But maybe it's because I have quite little experience and knowledge about this side of league creation..

From: MrJ

This Post:
11
324689.221 in reply to 324689.218
Date: 1/11/2025 11:54:09 PM
Swan River Serpents
III.2
Overall Posts Rated:
342342
Second Team:
Westopian Tigers
About Schedule.

It's easy (for me ) to re-arrange the schedule if we don't want that the best teams win easily the 8-10 first games.
If we want something else, just tell me. I don't know if Playpass can do this, but I can do it (it's just an Excel sheet ;)


Thanks demars.

O only mentioned Playpass as it was random and I thought we would want to go with random to keep it completely open and fair for the first season. However, if, as Wagner seems to suggest, randomness is not essential, then yes, I'm sure you could generate a schedule using excel.

As a school teacher (Basketball Coach, Football Coach, Running Club Coach etc) I have used Excel and created many a similar fixture.

Rather than us continuing to debate the pros and cons of every detail indefinitely...I think we need to make a decision:

Random schedule or not?
1 Division or not?


As a school leader, I understand acutely the importance for open collaboration and consensus; however, there is also a time when decisions, based on the general consensus, just need to be made.

Last edited by MrJ at 1/11/2025 11:54:31 PM

Home Grown; for teams who like a challenge!
From: MrJ

This Post:
00
324689.222 in reply to 324689.219
Date: 1/11/2025 11:55:28 PM
Swan River Serpents
III.2
Overall Posts Rated:
342342
Second Team:
Westopian Tigers
HG League or short HGL is good name.


I was actually liking this one the best. :-)

I will add it to the list.

Thanks, Hadar.

Home Grown; for teams who like a challenge!
From: MrJ
This Post:
00
324689.223 in reply to 324689.222
Date: 1/11/2025 11:57:07 PM
Swan River Serpents
III.2
Overall Posts Rated:
342342
Second Team:
Westopian Tigers

Updated

...League Name possibilities put forward:

BBHG (BuzzerBeater HomeGrown) (Wagner)
The League (Wagner)
H²G²L (Heroic Home Grown GreatestS League) (demars)
IHGL (International HG League) (MrJ)
HGL (Hadar)



Anyone else? Once we get enough, we can create a poll.

Last edited by MrJ at 1/11/2025 11:57:58 PM

Home Grown; for teams who like a challenge!
From: Wagner

To: MrJ
This Post:
00
324689.224 in reply to 324689.221
Date: 1/12/2025 6:34:06 AM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
211211

O only mentioned Playpass as it was random and I thought we would want to go with random to keep it completely open and fair for the first season. However, if, as Wagner seems to suggest, randomness is not essential, then yes, I'm sure you could generate a schedule using excel.


I'm just trying to say that there are pros and cons in both options, and like I tried to open the complicated nature of keeping the fair balance for all teams if we'd change the match schedule/order manually.

Like I mentioned, every movement (moving one match from one week to another) affects other teams, so it's a complicated process to keep the match order optimally fair for all teams.
So instead of considering randomness non-essential, I'm pondering which is the most realistically fair option for all, and with this knowledge I suppose randomness would actually be the way to go.

So in other words I was just trying to say that given that we probably couldn't be sure that someone who'd create match schedule manually would be able to take account all factors. By doing it by hand (and with 14 teams, which I think is more difficult than with 7 teams) you'd need to consider so many things, like at which part of the season which teams face each other, and everything affects everything... because if we'd want to most best teams to face each other (and worst each other) at the end of regular season for instance, then we'd have to make best teams face worst teams at the beginning of the regular season and that would lead to best teams confirming playoff spots early on and cause worst ones to be dropped out of playoffs early on, etc., so it's a complicated process to do it manually and fairly to all.

Randomness is cruel to some teams in a one given season (some say that it's always fair though), as we can see in cup competitions. ;) Plus if we use random generator for schedule, then after creation of schedule if someone is willing to take a look at the schedule while keeping an eye on team rankings simultaneously, perhaps it would be possible to verify that no "justice murder" is taking place for one team (like my previous example: worst team would face teams in this order; rankings 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th team, etc. etc.).

Also, I don't have any knowledge whether or not you can choose any different kind of options in Playpass when you create a schedule with it, or is it always random? And does it let you add team strength (or only team name) which it then takes into account when creating sensibly arranged schedule?


Rather than us continuing to debate the pros and cons of every detail indefinitely...I think we need to make a decision:

Random schedule or not?

So with this knowledge and understanding I might go with random order (and possibly, if there are willing managers to do that, to verify that there's nothing hugely wrong with the schedule in terms of fairness - I realize it could be too arduous/very hard task, and it's not required of anyone).

From: Wagner

To: MrJ
This Post:
00
324689.225 in reply to 324689.221
Date: 1/12/2025 7:01:31 AM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
211211

Rather than us continuing to debate the pros and cons of every detail indefinitely...I think we need to make a decision:

Random schedule or not?
1 Division or not?


My very strong opinion is, that at least for the first season of BBHG there should be 1 league tier (all teams play in the same level league).

Also I think we should play with 1 league table only including all 14 teams - that´s the approach most top sports leagues in Europe are using, and using 1 league table would eliminate any controversies/problems of placing teams to conferences totally fairly (which frankly is next to impossible task, as one group would always be tougher to advance/avoid relegation from than advance from other group), and results of regular season would be 100% fair as there's only one league table (there's no difference between groups how difficult it is to advance to playoffs or avoid possible relegation).

This one league table would be like the one what you can see in buzzer-manager when you look at your regular season table - it compares all 16 teams of the league in one table (by wins and then by point differential) which in many cases makes my point and underlines the problems associated with two different groups - teams are most often not at their "expected" positions in buzzer-manager league table where they're "supposed" to be but several positions upper or lower than "expected" compared to normal BB league tables (which are divided into two groups), which underlines the problems.

It's highly irritating and frustrating to see in a regular BB league, especially where strong imbalance between same level groups exist, that in say 'west group' you can get to playoffs with certain regular season record, while in 'east group' you'd be fighting to avoid relegation at best with the exactly same win-loss record. I league table within the same league tier, as used in most top sports leagues around Europe, solves all these problems, simple as that. I realize this problem isn't nearly as pronounced as in regular BB leagues as we play against each other only once (instead of twice against our own group opponents), but still problems with 2 groups of 7 teams in terms of total fairness persists at some level.

In an attempt to make this conversation easier in the future I'd like to mention that I think these terms (especially term division but also league and group) can sometimes cause confusion, as there are parallel level leagues (for example USA II.3 and USA II.4 etc.) and of course parallel level groups in one same level league (there's 'east' and 'west' group in all regular BB leagues) within BB.
It doesn't help that for some reason in BB world "real" division 1 is called for example "USA II.3" (refers to division 2, which many use in writings) and not division "USA I.3" which it actually is, as it's really the second highest league tier, and the name should reflect that. I've always had a mindset (maybe it's because in Europe we do that predominantly?) that if we talk about division, division is never the main/top league of the country, so therefore I'd consider aforementioned "USA II.3" a 3rd highest league tier (which it obviously isn't in classical BB terminology for some reason).

I've had more discussions about this "1 division or not?"-question with MrJ, so I don't know whether or not it's necessary to copy paste my reasoning for this here in the forum (I won't add them to this post yet). But I think I made my point already... :)

This Post:
00
324689.226 in reply to 324689.225
Date: 1/12/2025 8:11:11 AM
NakamichiDragons
II.3
Overall Posts Rated:
23032303
Second Team:
Little Computer People
You shouldn't ruin this before it's even started, get it out there and then we'll see how it can or should continue.

founded in S3 IV.5 (34234) - returned in S28 IV.7
This Post:
00
324689.227 in reply to 324689.226
Date: 1/12/2025 8:38:52 AM
Swan River Serpents
III.2
Overall Posts Rated:
342342
Second Team:
Westopian Tigers
You shouldn't ruin this before it's even started, get it out there and then we'll see how it can or should continue.


I agree.

Home Grown; for teams who like a challenge!
This Post:
00
324689.228 in reply to 324689.226
Date: 1/12/2025 9:41:35 AM
Wagner College
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
211211
You shouldn't ruin this before it's even started, get it out there and then we'll see how it can or should continue.

Well, I'm not sure if you referred to my messages, but I was just wondering who's trying to ruin something here? :) I feel that my messages have got absolutely nothing to do with an attempt of ruining anything - this is called planning, optimizing and discussion in my opinion. And we still have, what, 8-9 weeks till the beginning of the season? It is plenty of time to get everything organized, especially if we keep on doing necessary things (as we have in the past weeks, more than ever).

So there's no need to make rushed decisions either, as long as we stick with some kind timetable which enables us enough safety net/flexibility. But having said that, I am glad most people seem to be happy to go with proposed things, as it speeds up things. Maybe understandably, as I proposed creation of this league back in September (I have no clue if someone has proposed similar in earlier, original Homegrown teams-thread), I have many visions and opinions (of which some are on the strong side) on what I think this league should/could look like.

And I agree 100%, it is absolutely a good idea to get it started soon, and personally I have no doubt that will happen starting next season. We do have MrJ here too now to help with practical stuff, and that has made this process to speed up quite a bit (like all you have noticed from the forum).

However, I'm not the kind of person myself who just likes to "throw something out and see what it becomes, if it becomes anything at all" (and to state the obvious, I'm not saying you are either, and you didn't say exactly like that, but I used those words to make it more clear what I mean), if you know what I mean, and I think properly planned structure and rules (this kind of planning I've personally done a lot today) gives us the best foundation to start from (and possibly to continue on in the future).

From: Hadár

This Post:
00
324689.229 in reply to 324689.228
Date: 1/12/2025 12:45:27 PM
Svätý Jur Snakers
Extraliga
Overall Posts Rated:
428428
Why postpone it until next season? I thought it would be played this season. 14 participants, 13 matches for each on neutral ground and then the placement matches. No need to make anything difficult out of it.

This Post:
00
324689.230 in reply to 324689.228
Date: 1/12/2025 1:31:43 PM
NakamichiDragons
II.3
Overall Posts Rated:
23032303
Second Team:
Little Computer People
I didn't want to offend anyone or demean the mission.

Just do it, it could be good.

A few simple rules and that's it, there won't be a perfect schedule that everyone agrees with:
- all games on neutral ground
- all games at a specific time
- all results of the season are neutralized (not counted) if a team deviates from homegrown criterias

What else you should think about:
- who is responsible for the invitation anyway?
- What happens if the game/invitation doesn't take place on time and a team doesn't have enough time to line up?

Have fun and good luck …

founded in S3 IV.5 (34234) - returned in S28 IV.7
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