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6th Man Role

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This Post:
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222588.2 in reply to 222588.1
Date: 7/27/2012 1:58:48 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
959959
I like to see this for a while, giving Backup different level of importance would bring more variability to the team, without making managing minutes to easy.

This Post:
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222588.3 in reply to 222588.1
Date: 7/27/2012 3:13:16 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
689689
Agree.
Being able to put a back-up on two positions without having your starters playing 40+ minutes a game would be great.
Having "roles" for your back-ups would be even better. This would ad a whole new strategic dimension to the game!

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This Post:
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222588.4 in reply to 222588.1
Date: 7/27/2012 3:23:14 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
13361336
If you put a better player than the starter to the sub spot and choose let coach decide, the sub will get 24 minutes easily. This game is about skills/stamina/GS. In real life not everyone can effectivly come off the bench. There are guys who prefer to come off the bench in order to get minutes against the other teams bench players. Easier to produce etc. You can always start a low salary defence only player and have your gunner come off the bench. Is it wise?, I doubt it.
6th man award is like: hmm I know I can't get MVP or All-NBA honors, let me get that 6-th man award...
Everyone should want to be a starter.

This Post:
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222588.5 in reply to 222588.4
Date: 7/28/2012 10:30:20 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
4545
Yes, I can use let coach decide and he will play the better player. I will have to test this out a bit more in my PL league games to see what it can do. I want the 6th man to come off the bench at multiple positions and I fear it will just play him at one of the positions I list him as for most of the game, though. Not really what I am looking for.

I also think that your view on the 6th man is a bit off-base. There are guys who come off the bench in the NBA who could either start on other teams or even on their own team. They come off the bench to preserve stamina and carry the team when the starters start to tire and go to the bench for a breather. It is not because they aren't good enough to be an MVP...in fact, a few 6th men award winners have made the All-Star team from the bench and Bill Walton and Kevin McHale are hall of famers who played the 6th man role (and Walton was a previous MVP award winner!).

My previous examples of Manu and Harden are really good ones for my case. Both players are better than the guy they sit behind. Harden comes off the bench because his scoring is redundant with 2 all star scorers in front of him. One can sit and Harden can come in to mind the gap really well. Manu does the same thing for the Spurs, carrying the offense when Parker and Duncan need to sit. Manu/Harden both get 30+ minutes per game. I want to recreate that with my team, where a well-balanced scorer comes off the bench at multiple positions to prey on the backups of other teams for extended periods of time.

This Post:
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222588.6 in reply to 222588.1
Date: 7/29/2012 8:26:53 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
299299
I like this idea. +1

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222588.7 in reply to 222588.5
Date: 8/1/2012 7:06:06 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
13361336
I'm sorry for this late answer, but it's summer:)

The sixth man in NBA is a funny concept. There are scorers in the NBA, that need to get their touches. If you have 2 goto guys in the starting lineup, then the third option has trouble being effective. Unless he can defend. A lot of the scorers are not really good defenders. So they get their touches when the 2 first options take a rest.
What I don't like about the so called "sixth man" is that surprise surprise... they play a lot of minutes. In my eyes if you play 31.4 minutes a game (Harden "the award winner" third most in his team) you are not a freaking bench player, period! Same with last season winner L.Odom 32.2 mins (third most in his team).
J.Crawford 31.1 (4-th in his team), J.Terry 33.7 (3-d), M.Ginobili 31.1 (3-d).
Those guys are always on the floor when the game is on the line. I think it's pretty idiotic - let's say Dirk wants the sixth man award. They just set Brand to starting lineup and switch Dirk in at the first possibility. If he still logs 33.5 minutes per game, but has less starts than he comes off the bench, he takes the award.

I have a pretty good rotation in my teams backcourt, with the third player averaging 26.7 mins. If I would start my trainee for example and choose let coach decide and assign my starter to both backcourt backup, he will average more minutes than the starting trainee. So it's still doable in this game. Is it a good strategy? I doubt it...

This Post:
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222588.8 in reply to 222588.7
Date: 8/2/2012 6:25:07 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
4545
I see what you are saying about the 6th man, and I do agree with you. I don't want to recreate a 6th man type of deal exactly, but I want a player to play meaningful rotation minutes off the bench.

There is no way your 3rd guard off the bench gets 26.7 minutes PER GAME. He probably gets 35 minutes 1 game and 15 the next unless you are constantly winning blowouts. Not the same.

I am looking for the option to play a player at 2 positions off the bench and have those minutes added together instead of canabalize each other. I feel that having all backups play 10-15 minutes only at the position they are set to back up minimalizes the bench. What is the benefit of having a great bench when they don't play that often?

The more I think about it, the more I wish there was a better way to regulate the ratio of minutes between starters/reserves other than stamina. That seems like a silly way to regulate playing time, anyways.

I will continue to experiment with the "let coach pick from depth chart" to see if it gets me closer to my idea of regular rotational minutes off the bench.

This Post:
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222588.9 in reply to 222588.8
Date: 8/2/2012 8:39:02 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
13361336
He get's more minutes when my starters get into foul trouble or I win by blowout. It's not profitable to have a better player to come off the bench in this game.
Like I said you can get more minutes to a backup if you let your better player come off the bench. I think you current team lacks the skill difference needed to successfully use that option.

This Post:
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222588.10 in reply to 222588.1
Date: 8/3/2012 11:04:18 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
766766
yer good topic, im not sure what the answer is, but there is some good discussion here, and id love to hear how the tactic of 'letting coach decide' works out.

I dont think you will ever be able to replicate the scenario of some NBA players, who, play 30+ mins but come off the bench. Starters who only log <10 mins, i just dont think its possible to do in this game.

Setting one player as backup to two positions is a good way to get more mins, but you want more still, i understand that as well and i agree with this.
an interesting tactic, might be to play a guy with low stamina as a starter? My C has/had pitiful Stamina, and he seemed to only play 25-30-ish mins per game. unless i set him as backup as well, that increased his mins a bit.

So maybe... get a starter who has great stats, but has low stamina? And set ur 6th man to replace him. That might help.

The other thing that ive started doing with a good 6th man, is have your 6th man be an 'out of position' player. eg: Buy a SG with a level of ID which doesn't hurt you too much, and play him at PF? its only for 10- mins a game, and dependant upon your tactic, you might get more offensive punch from the out of position guy. I know this doesnt increase his minutes, but it may increse the 6th mans offensive output?

worth a try in some PL or scrimmage games anyways.

This Post:
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222588.11 in reply to 222588.10
Date: 8/3/2012 12:24:16 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
4545
I guess I should clarify that I do not necessarily want a scorer from the bench nor a 10 minute starter and 38 minute bench player$ I just used those as examples of possibilities.

What I really want is for my well rounded bench player to rotate better with my starters so he gets 20+ minutes as opposed to the 8-12 he is getting now. This is happening to my front court and back court, mind you.

Playing players at multiple back up positions does not increase his minutes. It only serves to increases starters minutes.

I could buy players with low stamina, but because I train all 9 of my rotation players I would have to purposefully buy trainees with low stamina and then consciously not train stamina. I just think stamina is a poor way to regulate lineup minutes. Kind of silly, actually.

Keep the conversation going!

This Post:
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222588.12 in reply to 222588.11
Date: 8/3/2012 8:21:15 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
766766
thats interesting that ur guy isnt getting more minutes when set at two positions. earlier this season i was setting the same player as the backup Pg and Sg and he was getting 15-20 mins a game. 9 at one position, 7 at the other, usually an uneven distribution, but it definately did happen multiple times. so i wonder why this doesnt happen with ur guy.

the stamina thing is an interesting one. Why doesnt San antonio start manu? Or why does Jason Terry come off the bench. this allows them to come into the game fresh against tired opponent, and also be more effective down the stretch. but poor old whoever st starting SG, maybe its because he has crap stamina? i dunno. probably not. its not sometihng to do deliberately, but certainly something to take into consideration over time if u ever do purcahse a lower stamina player.

why oh why are u training all 9 of ur rotation players?its very inefficient form of training? thats a topic for another conversation

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