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Actually this is not true. I don't think ive trained Jump shot for like.... well, a long time. I rely on 1n1 for guards and Outside shooting to train my JS. And I dont think ive ever trained SB, I rely on the ID and RB training to pump that up.
The point im making is that there are lots of examples in the training suite where there is substantial cross-skill training and for the most part, its all logical.

But nothing trains passing as a secondary. One on One trains so much more stuff than JS and almost as much JS as JS training that very few people use JS training and few of those actually understand training speeds. JR training is so slow that even among the people who haven't considered the skill totally worthless, it's rarely trained. Because almost everything trains handling and 1v1 trains so much more on so many more players, almost nobody trains handling. These are things that are actual problems with the training. People unwilling to take a week or two here or there to train FT is a much lower spot on the scale - it would make some sense for JS to train it, sure, but FT training is so fast, doesn't really get slowed down by age, trains everyone and is not minute dependent that there's no real compelling game design reason to increase it other ways as well. There are a lot more compelling issues with training that are far more worthy of being addressed than this, and certainly the only way training FT as a secondary to other skills would make real sense is in a serious rework of the entire training system.

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 5/25/2014 9:06:21 AM

Sure, everything you said about the other trainings is true, but its not clear why you are so passionately against this suggestion.

Perhaps because it would just add one more example of what hrudey described as being wrong with the training if implemented?
For training to really be meaningful, it has to require that people make choices between what they train. Right now there are so many of the training "choices" that no one makes because it's too easy to get a decent amount of training in one area by training something primarily aimed at something else. That's actually poor game design, and adding another example of it by having JS training provide some FT training is a bad direction to head in.
The reason players with high JS/JR and low FT exist in BuzzerBeater is become someone intentionally made that type of player. If they really wanted their player to have both high JS/JR and high FT, they easily could have chosen to do a more realistic training approach. Instead they decided that FT training really isn't worth doing and spent that time (and it's not like there aren't a couple of short weeks each season that are practically designed to be perfect for team FT training) training something else which they felt was more important. That's fine, but then they shouldn't keep coming tot the suggestion forum every few months and asking for the training to be changed because they made a choice about how they trained their player(s) and don't like the fact that their unrealistic training regimen resulted in a BB player who doesn't resemble a real world basketball player.

It's admittedly rare but it does happen every now and then.

Rojan Rondo - Career FG% .475 - Career FT% .621
Bruce Bowen - Career 3PT% .393 - Career FT% .575
Hollis Thompson - Career FG% .460 - Career 3PT% .401 - Career FT% .712
Kendall Marshall - Career 3PT% .396 - Career FT% .540

wow Rondo shoots crap from the line! Thats amazing!

BUT when you look at his shot chart, he shoots like, 95% of his shots from inside the ky close to the rim. Check out his shot chart from say the 11-12 season.

He shot 340 shots from inside the key close at the rim. The next highest number of shots from one of the zones, was 41 shots from the top of the key elbow.

and he only attempted 44 3 point shots the whole season.
ie: He shot 572 shots in the season.
60% were from inside the key right at the rim. ie: Layups/dunks.
only 7.5% of his shots were 3point shots.

So, yer, its actually documented that he has a poor jumpshot, hence he doesn't take them, (although i believe he has been working on it of late).

So whilst i like your field goal % comparisons. They are a little bit misguiding.

It does raise the question of perhaps FT is more related to the Jump Range skill, rather than Jump Shot? Anyone wish to discuss?

You're missing a couple of important points.

First off, it's not the same if you train any other skill (OD,PA,ID...) when player is 18 or 28 years old. Therefore, it's imperative to make best use of his young years and raise the player's secondary skills as soon as possible.

If BB is, as it's stated on the startpage, "most advanced basketball simulation", than it's only logical that a player who easily nails jumpshots is also a good FT shooter, who raises his free throw line percent as his shooting skills get better. For example, if Shaq trained his JS persistently, wouldn't his FT % also rose?

Managers like myself who regularly invest in draft and are fond of homegrown players (because nothing beats a green vertical arrow on Friday morning :) ) don't want to lose time on individual FT training, particularly if the trainee already gets 5-6 ups on JS.

If you pay close attention, you' ll see that I didn't mention ST, although it's also not cost effective to train this skill during the player's teen years. However, due to the nature of this skill, it's a largely independent aspect of a player's skill set and cannot be directly linked to another, as is the case with free throwing.

Sarcasm is ok, but I prefer good solid logic ;)

Managers like myself who regularly invest in draft and are fond of homegrown players (because nothing beats a green vertical arrow on Friday morning ) don't want to lose time on individual FT training, particularly if the trainee already gets 5-6 ups on JS.

That's certainly your decision, and one of the side effects is that you never train FTs and your team shoots FTs less effectively. Other people may like big men that pound the boards and play inside exclusively, and the side effect is their passing will always suck. That's choice and consequences. BB gives you the tools and if FT is important to you, you can train it. If passing is important to you, you train it. If stamina is important to you, you train it.

I understand the desire to not have to train FT. It sucked for me to carry players with 2 and 3 FT for the past 7-8 seasons while I was training my batch of trainees. I deliberately made the decision that it was something that was going to wait until my trainees were up to 26 and nearly capped, and so I've trained FT almost exclusively this season to get it up to speed. But I think it's an important skill and worth training, made the decision on when it made sense for me to train it and went with that. If it's important to you, you'll also need to decide how important and when it makes sense to train it. Every skill works like that, though, just that some also are trained by other trainings (some by too many, like handling, others by none at all, like passing).

If BB is, as it's stated on the startpage, "most advanced basketball simulation", than it's only logical that a player who easily nails jumpshots is also a good FT shooter, who raises his free throw line percent as his shooting skills get better. For example, if Shaq trained his JS persistently, wouldn't his FT % also rose?

Managers like myself who regularly invest in draft and are fond of homegrown players (because nothing beats a green vertical arrow on Friday morning ) don't want to lose time on individual FT training, particularly if the trainee already gets 5-6 ups on JS.

If you pay close attention, you' ll see that I didn't mention ST, although it's also not cost effective to train this skill during the player's teen years. However, due to the nature of this skill, it's a largely independent aspect of a player's skill set and cannot be directly linked to another, as is the case with free throwing.

Sarcasm is ok, but I prefer good solid logic ;)

Hrudey brought up nothing trains passing as a secondary yes?

Why do you insist on the jump shot to free throw..... When a bigger focus and more realistic is:
Why does rebounding not train passing a small degree? Big men don't typically grab a rebound and take the ball entirely coast to coast do they? And not all guards rebound like Jason Kidd or Rondo....

My point here is that you're asking for a perfect world solution, and such a thing cannot exist. There's not going to be a solution where everyone is happy. As it stands now... Your guy sucks at free throws... You are left with options:
Trade him for a guy that can hit ft
Train ft so he can hit them
Do nothing
Design your team to work around the ft flaw: ie: make them better rebounders so they rebound missed ft.

If none of these choices suit you, and you are adamant on a one-track solution... That is your choice but I question your managing skills.

Going back to real world and realistic since you brought it up... It's not realistic with how rare injuries happen here, or that a guy wins MVP and then his salary remains same instead of shooting up, etc. I could go on for days with unrealistic things.

Point being. It's not broken, so work with what you got


Last edited by ShadowSlam at 5/27/2014 4:12:08 PM

but if what your saying is true, then there is no point to a suggestions forum then, is there? :P
we are suggesting things to improve the game. Chances of it getting implemented - 0.01% (yes, negative percent)...... so lets just discuss it openly and freely and not talk about the fact that 'the game is the way it is and its not changing' and get all defensive and blah blah blah, let free speech be free speech and just let some of us have our dreams please?
We all know its not going to happen because the game hardly ever changes, but its nice to dream sometimes isnt it?

So lets keep it that way. And ive decided to change my logic to be Jump Range is associated with FT's :) Not Jump shot :)

lets look at some practical numbers shall we? terrific ill make a cup of tea.

Current rate of FT training per 48+ minutes- errrr... i dunno? anyone? anyone? lets say its 0.75 of a pop.

So if you had a guy whom, for 10 seasons you trained FT once per season, you would get 7.5 pops. So from Pitiful-ish to Strong-ish essentially. (Note, im using a made up 0.75 amount. no idea what it actually is if someone tells me ill rejig the numbers)...

If JR trained FT's at the same rate that say, Pressure train's handling, (ie; about 0.1) and you trained JR once a season as well as FT once per season, you would get ONE extra pop.
ie: To Proficient-ish.

Lets say, you only train FT once every 2 seasons. 3.25 pops. BUT you still trained JR once per season. Over 10 seasons, you would get 4.25 pops, instead of 3.25

So.... the point being is that, if FT was related to JR at the same rate the HD is related to Pressure, and you only trained JR once every season for 10 seasons, the difference is 1 pop.

Based on the numbers from the trainings site, im guessing that JR on average gets trained once every season, similar to FT's. very loose assumption that though....

Lets say im training a SG, and i want him to have Wonderous JR, so i need 8 pops (start at Average for example), which is about 20 weeks of JR training, so im going to end up with about 2 extra pops in FT. say i did that over the course of 4 seasons, during which i also trained FT once a season. Net FT gain = about 5 FT pops.

For me, 0.1 (ie: the same benefit that Handling gets from Pressure training) is probably a good amount for this. A relationship between JR and FT would be established, such that players with high JR would have benefit to FT.

So a small change like that would have a decent benefit to the logical-ness of the relationship, without disturbing the fabric of the sacred training engine.

and please, can no one respond with 'oh there are heaps of other things wrong with this game', 'there are heaps of unrealistic things in this game', 'just put up with it' etc etc type answers, ive kinda heard them already, and i just don't care because im pretty sure that this is the suggestion forum.
So id really like to hear from someone who has something constructive to say about the suggestion. maybe build on it, maybe offer alternatives, maybe give me a logical reason about the impact to training in the game will cause massive economic downturn in the US Stock market or cause magnetic cohesion between the tectonic plates in the pacific or ... something different thanks!

No. There is still point to suggestions

I said if it's not broken why force it? They already do maintenance, when they did the GDP and other things to limit LI dominance, tweaking SB etc. They do the routine maintenance to keep it from breaking.

Now some things do get broken, or just flat out aren't there... And for those we need suggestions. We also need suggestions on different ways to tweak things.

But quite literally for something that's been looked at as fine thousands of times in the past calendar year.... It's good. They got a grip on that one. If you want to interpret what I said as defensive that's on you...

Personally I think that's the biggest problem with the suggestion forums/message boards is the text format etc. People misinterpret or think there are tones that May or may not be there. We could do video things but that would take massive amounts of data and then you would have to have them deleted at a fair rate to save space etc. That has a -% chance of happening too.

Back to your OP...
The jr thought. This I like... Because as is, nobody really trains it that much, so even if it's just a small FT boost... That already makes it more worthwhile and I would be more inclined to throw it in as a training once in a while myself

Back to your OP...
The jr thought. This I like... Because as is, nobody really trains it that much, so even if it's just a small FT boost... That already makes it more worthwhile and I would be more inclined to throw it in as a training once in a while myself

yey
not sure what your saying in the rest of your post - too many things going on there for a pre-coffee brain to understand, but the thread is about FT so....

yey

back at the numbers - I also looked at the impact of making the FT benefit about 0.2 per 48 mins of Outside Shooting (Just to clarify, Single position Outside Shooting training is what ive been talking about).

If you trained FT once a season for 10 seasons and got 7.5 pops out of it AND you trained OS for SG once a season and got 2.0 pops out of it, thats looking more like 9.5 pops.

Remove the FT training fro the equation. 20 weeks of single posi OS training would result in 4 pops in FT and ... about 8 pops in JR.

Not sure about this. seems a little bit high. Maybe 0.15 would be a nice balance..... maybe even incorporate it into JS as well... but heaps less, like 0.3 or something. Such that there is a bit of a combined benefit from those two stats.